Class A Rules Proposal

[Loren]

I must confess, I haven't paid any attention to SCCA PAX numbers for many years.

However, I don't think my argument is much different than this:

The other reason is simply that we don't have a class that a car with modified suspension, but without 200 hp, can compete.

Regardless of t-shirts and trophies, people want to be competitive in the car they bring, be that a stipped honda on slicks, a turbo miata on DOT-Rs, or a 3500 lbs Mustang on road race tires. Most of the cars that run in the class are woefully under-prepared and I think the rules should be changed to reflect that. Yellow_Colorz_PDT_06

The difference is, we typically have about 6-8 cars on race tires at any given event. How many classes can we reasonably have for 8 cars to compete in? (we already have 4!)

If the guy in the under-prepared (but still "modified") low-powered car wants a place to compete in the FAST class structure, all he has to do is stay on street tires. I think FAST has always viewed the race tire classes as just a place for those few who want to play on race tires to run. Those who run there generally seem to be either just doing it for fun (because they like the grip of race tires), for practice (like Howard), or are trying to be in contention for FTD (because everybody needs a goal!).

Arguably (but not by much), this club was built by and for "casual" street tire autocrossers.

Back to the topic at hand, though... Howard doesn't care what class he runs in, and I don't think anybody's going to care much if we bump all non-DOT tires to the R class. A simple change to make.

I'm not so sure we should start nitpicking so much as to look at interiors, though. Just in the past few events, I've seen several completely stripped cars at our events. A few 240's, an ugly FWD Corolla, an ugly RWD Corolla, a BMW LeMons car. Do all of those poor souls get bumped to R if they happen to come upon a set of DOT race tires to play on?

[impalanut]

This discussion is not unlike many that occur on the SCCA forums and is probably the most common type of discussion after specific car set up questions. How to keep the classes competitive and fair. Even with 35 classes each for men and women the SCCA still has this problem. Our goal, and I was many of the prior meetings and discussions, was how to keep the number of classes small enough so there was real competition (not too many 1 or 2 car classes), and how to make rules for classing that was easy to understand and verify. We tried the NASA rules and found that to be unsatisfactory and we agreed that the number of classes in SCCA was too large, although we do use some of their data for classing because they are the largest source of data for solo. For the most part, I think we do a good job of the above. No matter how you do the classing, there well always be caars in each category that will be better than others.

The weakness of some of the prior arguments is that people want their cars to be competive and have a chance to win their class, but they don't want to put in the time and effort to maximize their driving or their car. Drew stated that most of the cars in the class are "woefully underprepared" for A. If that is true, then you are penalizing me for spending more time and money to develope my car and my driving. If that is too much competition then there are two choices. Make a new category, and I have already stated that a new category to cover prepared type cars is a viable option. Or, drop down to a lower class until you want to put more time and money into your car and your driving.

I have a good car. I have been able to race two or three weekends a month for the last year so I am getting a lot of seat time. I am willing to test new set ups. I don't have 200 hp (about 160 hp). The data clearly shows that moderately modded miatas, s2000, corvettes are faster, more modded mustangs and camaros are faster ( C prepared). Just look at the results from national events to see this. These are the only events where there is a large number of cars prepared to the limits and good drivers in them. I looked at the national results from last year. I took the third place drivers in each class. I did this to eliminate the unbelievable driver or car and compared: A Mod for comparison 72.6 EP-81.4 CSP 80.2 CP 80.8 SM 80.3 SSM 79.0 CS 82.3. That means a stock miata on r compounds only .9sec behind EP.

Like I said previously, I don't care how we do the classing. Just make sure you look at the process for classing so that you are allowing guidlines for all the people who show up and are not just trying to move my car around. If people show up in a beater car with no interior does that bump them up to the next class, and if not, why not. We used to give awards at each event. One of them was the FTD not includilng Danny Shields. He basically was FTD every event regardless of what car he drove. He didn't care if he got a certificate, but I don't know if it was any fun for him or not. I am certainly not in his class as a driver, but I also think we need to keep the playing field level and not just making rules for one car or driver.

[Agent]

I just want to know where Howard buys his tires.

[impalanut]

Phil's Tire Service 845-647-7407
Competition Tire South 386-274-5332
Bob Woodman Tires 843-524-8473
Mid Atlantic Motorsports 248-286-3175

[Charles]

I can understand Howard's point of view and I too was unaware of the PAX comparison of the two classes........ I think that's all the proof we need. I've been doing the same for the past year or so, running at every event I can since we all know driver is the biggest factor.

If I wanted to spend the $ and had the desire I could no doubt prep my 240 to easily compete with the CRX or anything else that wants to run in A.

Front over fenders, hack the rear up and run 295/335 R-comps, more boost, brakes, and stiffer springs. I could even leave the interior

[Loren]

I just want to know where Howard buys his tires.

Our buddy Jeff can also get you just about any tire you want.

[Jamie]

I must be the worst driver in the world dude. I mean, I'm supposed to be able to have a faster car than Howard and he beats me by something like 4 seconds! :shock: I mean, I know I'm shitty, but I didn't think I was that bad.

This course demanded a little more finesse than usual for a really good run. There were three corners that were very easy to overcook...just add three-quarters of a second per blown corner. And while the course was fairly simple, the cone layout made it visually challenging to place the car...see blown corners. If you look at the complete set of times, you can see who "got it" and who was just flogging the car around the course -- there's a pretty distinct pattern in the times. Howard "got it", once he figured out how to stay off the cones. Tim "got it", even with the handicap of more power than the course could absorb. Loren "got it" on his last run. Bob Tamandli figured it out after his first run...Chris Meier took a couple to find the same enlightenment, but he got there. I caught a glimpse right at the end...but for the most part, I was just flogging the car. So yes, buddy, you and I were just that bad. Revenge at Brooksville.

[muddy]

I just had a quick look at PAX numbers and last event (I rounded the numbers here):

class pax driver best time difference pax time difference
EP 0.861 Howard 41.6 0 35.8 0
EP 0.861 Kenny 42.1 0.5 36.2 0.5
BSP 0.859 Tim 42.8 1.2 36.7 1.1
BSP 0.859 Brian 43.1 1.5 37 1.2
SSM 0.876 Carl 45.9 4.3 40.2 4.4

My perception was that an EP car is much faster than the other cars in class A. It is a sub 2000 lbs car with slicks, after all. However, after I ran the numbers, I see that the PAX difference between most of us (poor Carl) and Howard is just a few tenths.

I am hoping to get more interest in the modified race tire class by booting the perceived top dog, but who knows if that will make a difference. I do agree with Loren, if we proceed, we should base the distinction on the tires.

[Charles]

I am hoping to get more interest in the modified race tire class by booting the perceived top dog, but who knows if that will make a difference. I do agree with Loren, if we proceed, we should base the distinction on the tires.

FWIW I think I'll burn through one more set of street tires then make the move..... I'm still looking for that last consistent ~0.5 I know I'm missing out of the tires I have now.

[Loren]

I see that the PAX difference between most of us and Howard is just a few tenths.

Just a few.

[Agent]

Phil's Tire Service 845-647-7407
Competition Tire South 386-274-5332
Bob Woodman Tires 843-524-8473
Mid Atlantic Motorsports 248-286-3175

Sweet. I'm guessing you have good luck with the good years then?

[treekiller]

Goodyear does a good job with their slick product. but their DOT tires cannot hold a candle to the Hoosiers Hankook, or even Kumho product.. on short asphalt courses like SPC unless it's the middle of summer. you are going to want the stickiest tire you can get. and Carl.. while used R-comps are a great deal heat cycled and Road race compounded Dot's are significantly slower. on this type of course. (formula car slicks not included) in my testing it can be as much as a full second on a mid range 45 second course. run a Hankook C70 compound or Hoosier A compound if you want another second. then if you want I can actually sit down and help you dial in your setup, since trying to do it on the wrong tires is going to be an experment in frustration.. I've talked to Howard on occasion and he will wax lyrical about every aspect of the car and testing, this attitude and dedication is part of why his car and he is so quick.. If someone paid me to set up an autocross car I'd rent a facility and spend a whole day dialing in the car and driver. testing, changing re-testing, re-adjusting... it's a time consuming process and once you've decided on a tire and set up the car for that tire. it's not cheap either. since a full day of testing can take it's toll on a new set of race tires. but as the old saying goes. Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?

It does not hurt that he has more years experience racing and building cars then some of us have years on this planet.

Feel free to pull me aside some day.. we can do some pyrometer work on your car. and typically just getting allignment and tire pressures to maximize contact patch is a few tenths to a full second and that's without improving the driver or tires one bit. once you get your setup 90% then concentrating on the driver becomes that much easier. that's why stock class autocrossing is so wonderful.. it's like spec racing.. buy the "right" car. the "right tires" do a little allignment work and buy or build some good dampers. and then you can concentrate on the driver. since there is nopthing

I don't want FAST to become another SCCA with 30 some off classes (60 if you are not offended by or take seriously their sexist "ladies" classes) they have screwed it up and been around so long that they are not willing to re-vamp it. SCCA is about the WORST ruleset model one can think of. the old NASA-X ruleset really showed me a lot of promise. base points and points for modifications. this works GREAT in the time trial world. and keeps from having to keep adding "ME TOO" classes.

Jeff

[Tim_M]

I vote for Class A break between trailered and nontrailered cars!



My car wasn't built for autocross nor am I an avid autocrosser at the current time so I have two built in limfacs. I'm ok with this, but sure it would be nice to be competitive for top spot of A...then again, I'm not too bothered as he is a great yardstick/goal to shoot for (and deserves the recognition of the investment he has) as are the other competitors in Class A.

[Loren]

"No trailer" rules generally don't work for larger events. There are people who will put up with an "unstreetable" car just to drive to an autocross once in a while, and others who will craftily park their trailer 3 blocks away and drive their "non-trailered car" to the event.

But, our events aren't larger events. They are pretty casual, and I'd like to think that nobody takes them seriously enough to make that much of an effort to cheat... just to win a sticker and maybe a t-shirt.

Again, given that our club was built largely by and for "casual street-tire autocrossers", I think that relegating anything the comes in on a trailer to the "Race Car" class fits within our spirit.

I would support adding two new rules to the A class for next season:
1. Tires must be DOT approved.
2. Vehicles must be street legal, registered, and driven to the event.

Anything not meeting those two requirements could easily be considered a "Race Car" and should run in R.

However, this raises a question... we have Ron and Carl who have been known to tow their Miatas to events. Not because they aren't streetable, but just in case they break something. Do we address that in the classes below A? Do we somehow give that some consideration in class A?

[Jeremy]

I am always interested in creating new classes.

But I don't think the splits you guys are suggesting are any good. Are we going to make new rules every time someone builds a fast car? I could throw a turbo on my car with some 315 Hoosiers in the back (yes they fit under stock fenders) and easily drive away from Howard.

We could do a mirror of the proposed mod street tire classes. Carl would still be with Howard though, and Brian will actually be in a higher class using...

asp/bsp
csp/dsp/esp
fsp



I don't really think that we have enough competitors to create more race tire classes, and I don't think creating new classes will draw more people in.

[Loren]

I agree completely that we don't need more race tire classes. Not enough entries to support it, and IMO, we don't WANT more entries to support it. That's not what this club is about. If ya wanna compete with the big dogs on race tires... that's what SCCA is for. If ya wanna "run what ya brung" and hang out with those kind of people, then FAST is for you.

[Native]

I would support adding two new rules to the A class for next season:
1. Tires must be DOT approved.
2. Vehicles must be street legal, registered, and driven to the event.

Anything not meeting those two requirements could easily be considered a "Race Car" and should run in R.

However, this raises a question... we have Ron and Carl who have been known to tow their Miatas to events. Not because they aren't streetable, but just in case they break something. Do we address that in the classes below A? Do we somehow give that some consideration in class A?

Just leave out the "driven to the event" part. (I suppose you could get into more detail about just how stripped an interior can be - removing a back seat or replacing a stock driver's seat with a racing seat puts you in Modified, but that's different than completely stripping an interior). That'll still separate the built race cars and non-DOT slicks into R, purifying A the way it seems y'all are trying to do...and DOESN'T create more classes.

[Loren]

Heh. The "driven to the event" part is the most relevant.

You can keep any car you'd care to registered, insured and tagged. Howard could get a tag for his "race car" CRX any day of the week as long as he's got the title for it. You see this with SCCA Street Prepared (and stock, for that matter) all the time. They have a rule that requires the cars to be registered, so they are... but they're still not driven on the street... or driven to the events.

This is another one of those "slippery slopes". Arguably (very), we're trying to fix something that isn't really broken.

I guess one way to keep out "fully prepared" race cars, but still be very flexible to people who want to swap in race seats, or remove back seats, or took out their door panels and haven't gotten around to replacing them yet, or stripped out the carped because it was moldy, or whatever... just state that the car must have at least 50% of it's factory interior intact. Any "real" race car will never stop there... certainly not just to play with FAST on occasion. A real race car gets GUTTED.

Would that do it? A class = Modified with DOT race rubber, minimum 50% interior.

[Native]

You can keep any car you'd care to registered, insured and tagged.

Good point.

I hate to ask it, but do you really think "50%" is gonna be specific enough? Leaves a lot of room for debate...

[Jeremy]

If you are going to bump anyone, I would vote for bumping Carl into R. (not really ) That makes way more sense than what you are proposing.

AM 1.000
F125 .957
BM .944
CM .907
FM .903 <- Scott
DM .900
EM .894
XP .882
SM2 .876 <- Carl
FP .872
BP .868
SM .867
ASP .866
DP .865
CP .864 <- Peter, Drew
CSP .862 <- Elliott's Datsun
EP .861 <- Howard
BSP .859 <- Tim, Brian
SS .856
ESP .845
GP .841

What happens when Elliott starts driving the Datsun again, figure out some rule to bump him also?