Re: May 17th - SPC/topic split - points discussion

[Native]

this thread is a split from the May 17th post event talk about the way season points are handled

Sure is, if I can pull off two more class wins, it's all mine! Game on!

Game over. I forgot about that silly thing about dropping the lowest score. Penalizing good attendance makes no sense!

[Solar]

I just updated the points and sent them to Steve for posting. After seeing some close points races and dropping the lowest scored event or missed event, I agree with Steve that good attendance shouldn't be penalized. I forget exactly why we agreed to do that, but maybe it should be brought back up for discussion for next season?

[Loren]

The drop your lowest event from the points idea is for people who have lives, basically. Some people take family vacations that might keep them from attending an event, or work that might keep them away from an event... or maybe they might even just get sick and miss an event. It happens.

If you happen to be on the side who's "losing" the season because of a dropped event, you might not like it. But, what if you were that other person who was actually BETTER than you at most events throughout the season? Wouldn't it suck to lose the season because you had to miss an event due to something beyond your control?

That's the purpose behind it.

When you think about it... should our season championship be an "attendance award", or an award to the best driver in each class?

[Charles]

What he said above..... and good "attendance" doesn't penalize anyone....we just aren't rewarding PERFECT attendance....

[Native]

Game over. I forgot about that silly thing about dropping the lowest score. Penalizing good attendance makes no sense!

The drop your lowest event from the points idea is for people who have lives, basically. Some people take family vacations that might keep them from attending an event, or work that might keep them away from an event... or maybe they might even just get sick and miss an event. It happens.

If you happen to be on the side who's "losing" the season because of a dropped event, you might not like it. But, what if you were that other person who was actually BETTER than you at most events throughout the season? Wouldn't it suck to lose the season because you had to miss an event due to something beyond your control?

That's the purpose behind it.

Y'all are right. Didn't mean to be a bad sport. Got a little carried away with the "trash talk" and I can see how that last sentence was taken. It was funny in my head...

[Solar]

Y'all are right. Didn't mean to be a bad sport. Got a little carried away with the "trash talk" and I can see how that last sentence was taken. It was funny in my head...

You're not being a bad sport, I can see that when I update the points after every event that, yeah, it can be very discouraging that when you (just as a example, or anyone else for that matters) that you attend every event only to be beat by someone that missed one. Of course; on the other hand, it can be argued that if the person beating you in points had shown up for every event that you might even be back father in the points than you are now. I'm not complaining though, because I benifited from it because I couldn't attend last Sunday, so it didn't affect my status either way.

I'm thinking that we might need to look at how we keep points for next season, it's not a attendance thing, but just how we run that day of the event no matter who is there or not that really counts. Is dropping one point event score per season a "normal" thing other clubs do? Or is it unique to our club? To me it benifits the top points leaders to be able to take a event off, while the lower points drivers don't really have that option.

When you think about it... should our season championship be an "attendance award", or an award to the best driver in each class?

I think that if you don't, or can't, show up for a event, then it should be considered a forfeit in your class. I know there's 100 ways to look at it, but I'm not sure I like the way we drop a low score works. I understand that all of us have other things in our lives to do at times, and not all of us can make every event, but why penalize a driver that shows up for very event? For the "B driver" who is at every event, to lose in the final points race, only because we drop a low score, or a "Did Not Show" from the "A driver" that's leading the points in their class that can't make a event, just doesn't seem right to me. Yeah, it might not be a problem this year, or maybe next, but it can and could be a problem in the future. Just my 2 cents

Oh and great job for Adam Parke for scoring his first 1st place in "J", great job!! 8)

[Jeremy]

Is dropping one point event score per season a "normal" thing other clubs do? Or is it unique to our club?

SCCA only counts 50%+1 of your events. That's a little aggressive, but it's fun in it's own way. It ends up being 5 drops.

I don't know how the rest of the clubs do it, because I don't have a porsche, bmw, or corvette, so I don't get points anyway.

I think the current policy of one drop is good. Two drops wouldn't be that bad either. But I definitely think you need at least one.

[WAFlowers]

When we have an event we drop all but the best run and treat the others as practice. Dropping one or more events for the season results is similar.

We have 11 events a year give or take. Maybe consider only counting the best 6 (more than half) and treat the others as practice.

[Loren]

When I set this club up with a season championship initially, I suggested the "drop lowest event" rule because it's what was normal to me from running with SCCA in Kansas. Only, they dropped the lowest TWO events.

This is really a discussion that warrants it's own topic. One of you mods want to do some surgery on this thread?

[Charles]

but why penalize a driver that shows up for very event? For the "B driver" who is at every event, to lose in the final points race, only because we drop a low score, or a "Did Not Show" from the "A driver" that's leading the points in their class that can't make a event, just doesn't seem right to me.

No one is getting penalized, it's not rewarding those with perfect attendance. If the driver that showed up to every event didn't suck more than the driver that attended all but one, he would have won the points battle. This isn't elementary school........ where good attendance is encouraged

P.S. - I think we should drop 2 events per year........

[Native]

it's not rewarding those with perfect attendance. If the driver that showed up to every event didn't suck more than the driver that attended all but one, he would have won the points battle.

I agree. For my example, if I was able to beat Aaron more often, the point drop wouldn't hurt. Even though he didn't show up as often, he clearly won more often.

No one is getting penalized,

I disagree. Perfect attendance is penalized, as the dropped score lowers the total score. You have something taken away - that's a penalty. Those with imperfect attendance drop a zero, no effect on total score.

[Jeremy]

Look at it this way...

4 people missed 0 events
6 people missed 1 event
200 people missed 2 or more events

So what's best for the club as a whole, helping out 4 people, 10 people, or 206 people?

[Native]

Of course, helping the majority makes sense on one end of the debate. But those folks who don't show in all likelihood are not concerned about points anyway. And besides, dropping one Zero score does nothing to help or hurt "them," as nothing changes.

[Jeremy]

Look at it this way...

4 people missed 0 events
6 people missed 1 event
200 people missed 2 or more events

So what's best for the club as a whole, helping out 4 people, 10 people, or 206 people?

More data...

4 people missed 0 events.
6 people missed 1 event.
9 people missed 2 events.
8 people missed 3 events.
183 missed 4 or more events.

[Jeremy]

Of course, helping the majority makes sense on one end of the debate. But those folks who don't show in all likelihood are not concerned about points anyway.

I look at it the other way, people that do show up to every event are more concerned with helping out the club and having fun and couldn't care less about points. IE me.

[Native]

So by dropping one lowest score, we affect 4 people, and maybe one or two more who might be close enough to benefit from the drop, e.g., this year's Class H, and maybe one other - I haven't looked that closely.

If we're going to drop any, dropping more than one seems better if you're looking to affect a greater number of people.

[Loren]

Now, I know Steve is our master of statistics, but I'll take a common-sense approach:

4 people missed 0 events.
6 people missed 1 event.
9 people missed 2 events.
8 people missed 3 events.
183 missed 4 or more events.

The 183 "don't matter", they're not in this to win a championship. (though they could and probably will walk away with a few 3rd place positions)

The 17 who missed 2 and 3 events DO benefit from us dropping one event (as do the other 6 who missed one event). They would benefit even more from us dropping two events. They've still got one or more "zero" scores to add to their total, but if they happen to have all 9's for the rest of the events they went to... they've still got a pretty good shot.

I'm not going to speak strongly on this issue one way or the other, but "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Only 4 people benefit from doing away with dropping a lowest event.

Personally, I can see the merit of dropping two events. Three is pushing it, but I would not object to that. Keep in mind that we only have 11 events per year, and at least one of them is a special event that we don't normally include in the points.

[Jeremy]

4 people missed 0 events.
6 people missed 1 event.
9 people missed 2 events.
8 people missed 3 events.
183 missed 4 or more events.

0 drops = 4 people on a level playing field
1 drops = 10 people on a level playing field
2 drops = 19 people on a level playing field
3 drops = 27 people on a level playing field

There are still 2 events left, so these numbers could go down. That's pretty awesome though that 27 people have made it to the majority of events. That's more than some clubs average for total attendance, and you have that many regulars.

[Loren]

Well put, Jeremy.

In fact, it's swayed me to put myself firmly behind the notion of dropping 3 events per season.

We have 27 "regulars" and we should do what we can to cater to them.

[Native]

We have 27 "regulars" and we should do what we can to cater to them.

Changing the drop policy seems to be in order for next year.
Where's Brian the Points Master?

And does anyone else have any input?