New PRO class?

[Jamie]

I got the official answer on another sight. [sic]

Not possible...the only two places to get a FAST official answer are here and the e-mail drop box (and I haven't seen anything in the drop box). Anything posted elsewhere is just opinion. Moreover, since there's no official decision, there's no official answer!

There are two ways to go with this: 1) Require pro class entrants to stick with the SCCA rules for the class they're claiming index for, or 2) Do like we do with the production and modified classes and use the FAST preparation rules and pick a representative equivalence (production = Stock, modified = ?) to base the index choices on. Chris is right, though -- there has to be a consistently applied standard, or else we're really classing drivers instead of cars. (That's another possibility, but throw away the PAX for that.)

[nc4me]

I was referring to a SCCA answer. The SCCA answer is CSP. The FAST answer is to be determined based on what everyone as a whole wants to do.

[impalanut]

Basically, we are already classifying drivers since we are trying to change the rules to boot me into another class while otheres who have won more class championships haven't drawn a peep. I still think that since the FAST rules are for the more casual driver who doesn't want to go full out we should use the SCCA rules for the PRO class. Not because the SCCA is such a great organization but because the data set for the SCCA pax is based on a lot of data about cars and drivers that we can't reproduce. Also, it would at least leave one class for the people who do want to take it more seriously. If you don't want to be more serious, you can always stay in your FAST class. I wouldn't object to making the update/backdate rules a little more lenient for things that didn't have much affect on performance (like leather seats, etc) but this can be discussed. We also should discuss the carts, they are never put in with regular cars at any other events, since they should beat any car except the most highly modified A mod cars,all the time. That would be for points not for actual driving time

[nc4me]

I agree with you Howard. We should use strict SCCA rules for this class. It should be for more serious competitors that are also willing to prepare their cars to specific rules. After all that was the argument with you in class A for FAST. People brought up that your car was prepared more than others. So I say we let everyone who isn't willing to prep their cars to that extent stay in their more casual FAST class and let everyone who is bump up to PRO. I think you, Jamie, Jack, Steve, and Jeremy would have good SCCA classes and PAX numbers for some darn good racing. I will sit out this year and see if I can beat Bob in FAST G. Next year when my car is closer to a true CSP cars specs, I'll enter the PRO class.

You can log this as my official stance and vote for how the PRO class should be run.

[Jeremy]

I agree with you Howard. We should use strict SCCA rules for this class. It should be for more serious competitors that are also willing to prepare their cars to specific rules. After all that was the argument with you in class A for FAST. People brought up that your car was prepared more than others. So I say we let everyone who isn't willing to prep their cars to that extent stay in their more casual FAST class and let everyone who is bump up to PRO. I think you, Jamie, Jack, Steve, and Jeremy would have good SCCA classes and PAX numbers for some darn good racing. I will sit out this year and see if I can beat Bob in FAST G. Next year when my car is closer to a true CSP cars specs, I'll enter the PRO class.

You realize only one person here has an SCCA prepped car?

How about we use another ranking method beside SCCA PAX?
I kind of like the idea that was kicked around a while back about doing a weight penalty type thing by adding or subtracting time.

[nc4me]

My bad, I was under the impression that howard was EP, jamie Stock, jack Stock, steve STS, and you would fall in BSP. I know your car isn't prepped nearly as much as a BSP car could be, but you have the driver mod that would make you competitive with that PAX number. Either way, I still feel that we should use set rules for this one class.

[Charles]

My bad, I was under the impression that howard was EP, jamie Stock, jack Stock, steve STS, and you would fall in BSP. I know your car isn't prepped nearly as much as a BSP car could be, but you have the driver mod that would make you competitive with that PAX number. Either way, I still feel that we should use set rules for this one class.

You are correct on your classing, I think what Jeremy is getting at is that we have one car fully prepped to a SCCA ruleset, maybe a few 80%, the rest not even close.

[impalanut]

So the one's not even close could stay in their FAST class, or choose to move to PRO class. Anything other than the SCCA pax would just be another guess at the capabilities of the cars since there is no good data. Even our FAST classes are just a guess. They work for us, but if another group of cars and drivers showed up, it might not work as well.

[Charles]

So the one's not even close could stay in their FAST class, or choose to move to PRO class. Anything other than the SCCA pax would just be another guess at the capabilities of the cars since there is no good data. Even our FAST classes are just a guess. They work for us, but if another group of cars and drivers showed up, it might not work as well.

Not arguing with you there, just clarifying Jerm's point. I don't care one way or the other right now

P.S. - I do like the street tire modifier idea though

[Jack]

i will agree again that pro is based and classed to the scca only, not change the clubs classes. thats what i was trying to say to loran but he did not understand, my answer. he started saying something, about a r comp to street tire index, wich has no meaning in the scca rules,
scca are classed as, stock, mod or st, street tire only, stock allows r comps or street tires.
the mod classes most run r comps, but if you wanted you could run street, but you would be be smoked!
i dont get a diffrent pax index at scca races when i run street tires in A stock. the pax is set to the class not tires in my class in scca. thats what i was trying to say when i said howard and loran would not class the same, i would think loran would go to a street tire class not stock or mod because of the tires required,
heres a question, the scca has a few new classes that dont have pax yet they are STU 2 and next year STR class how would you pax them? i am thinking about moving to STR class next year in scca. which will allow some mods i would like to do the car.

[Jamie]

...the scca has a few new classes that dont have pax yet they are STU 2 and next year STR class how would you pax them?

You wait until after Nationals and see how they shake out in Rick's calculations.

[Native]

Not that it amounts to a hill of beans, but just to clarify, to the letter of SCCA law, my car is actually D-prepared. Not STS.

[Charles]

the mod classes most run r comps, but if you wanted you could run street, but you would be be smoked!
i dont get a diffrent pax index at scca races when i run street tires in A stock. the pax is set to the class not tires in my class in scca.

The pax is also set to the fastest cars IN each class which I'm sure have a slight advantage on Hoosiers over cars on street tires.

IMO this is probably one of the top reasons SCCA classing kind of sucks. Aside from a few street tire classes, you are forced to buy r-comps that last 50 runs to compete or lose.

With the street tire modifier I think we get the best of both worlds...

[Jeremy]

Not that it amounts to a hill of beans, but just to clarify, to the letter of SCCA law, my car is actually D-prepared. Not STS.

Nice, now you'll need to beat me by 0.36 on a 60 second course. Good luck!

I decided I don't feel like running in a Pro class anymore. SCCA prep rules don't belong at a FAST event. I'm out.

[Native]

Not that it amounts to a hill of beans, but just to clarify, to the letter of SCCA law, my car is actually D-prepared. Not STS.

Nice, now you'll need to beat me by 0.36 on a 60 second course. Good luck!

I decided I don't feel like running in a Pro class anymore. SCCA prep rules don't belong at a FAST event. I'm out.

.36 - not a problem. I've been sandbagging not to hurt your feelings anway!

I'm gonna stick with H a while longer...

[Native]

The Pro Class was discussed at the recent membership meeting. No changes for the time being. We decided that Howard and Kenny are going to come up with a way to list everyone's PAX position in the results after the first few events, to give folks a chance to see how they might actually do in a PRO class. After 3-4 events, we'll revisit the idea, and see if it's generated any more interest than it has already. And we'll take it from there.