Run groups

[buddy bodean]

I agree, cap pre-reg at 70. Gates close at 9am (or when ever) fill empty (no show) slots from waiting walk-up list.

[Jeremy]

If 71 people show up to race, 1 person is getting turned away?

If an event sells out, a person has to get there early, get on a list and then wait around until 9 or 9:15 and hope someone doesn't show up.
This is what a "fun" club does to people? This sounds like one of those "BS" clubs.

[Loren]

If 71 people show up to race, 1 person is getting turned away?

If an event sells out, a person has to get there early, get on a list and then wait around until 9 or 9:15 and hope someone doesn't show up.
This is what a "fun" club does to people? This sounds like one of those "BS" clubs.

If we allow 71, do we allow 72? 75? 80? We've already let what was originally a limit of 60 expand as far as 75 on at least one occasion. A line that remains fuzzy is no line at all.

If it makes you feel better, our limit is actually 65 (the pre-reg limit). We're fudging that to allow that 66th person... all the way up to 70.

And, yes... if you don't pre-register, you have to get there early and wait around until 9:15 to see if you got a slot. It's always been that way, except that the slot was pretty much guaranteed. Now it isn't. The solution? Pre-register.

This is why I'd prefer to just go pre-reg only. It's easier to tell someone "sorry, our events require pre-registration" than "sorry you waited around 2 hours for nothing, but we don't have a slot open for you".

[nc4me]

I think pre-registration should be 65 with 5 walk-ups and the hard limit of 70. If not then pre-registration only.

[Jeremy]

I still don't get it. Are there any unselfish reasons to impose a limit?

For everyone that supports a limit, you would be OK getting turned away at event if you forgot to register before the cap? Or say one of your friends wants to try out autocrossing and you can't bring them because the cap is already met? Cool with that?

I just thought one of the reasons why people hated Brooksville was the stupid access list, and now you kind of doing the same thing at SPC.

[Loren]

Spin:

Would you be okay with 120 car events at SPC? Three runs, perhaps four if you're lucky. And events that regularly run until 6pm? Where is your personal "selfish" trigger?

There are a lot of things we "could" do. If you want to view it as "selfish" to not do them, I'm okay with that.

And before you say "we'll never reach 120 cars"... 8 years ago, we were at 30-40 cars and never even considered a limit. 5 years ago we were at 45 consistently, and didn't think we'd ever reach the 60 car limit regularly. Now we're at 70, and working our way to 75-80 if we let it.

[impalanut]

There are some facts that you can't deny. First, the SPC site is a small site with limits on the ability to put cars in grid. Second, there is only so much time in a day. Third, it takes a certain amount of work and people to put on a good, safe event. As the number of drivers increase, the more work it takes and the more time it takes to do a fixed number of runs. Therefore, as the group gets larger you have to make some changes. We need to decide whether we want to allow unlimited drivers, or if we want to make sure our events run in a particular way. If you want more runs and less hassle , we will need to cap the number of drivers. If we want unlimited drivers, we have to accept running longer and working harder. In either case we have to decide how we want the events to run, but we can't do it by cutting corners. The other trade off is having more corner workers, even if they do other things.

[jev61]

I'd like to offer my two cents worth as a guy who is still a bit new at this.

I think the fun comes from having more runs and getting done before it gets too hot or too late. I know fewer people get to race with what I'm recommending, but waiting until after 3pm to begin your runs after arriving before 7:30 takes the edge off the fun for me. BTW; I like the idea of handing out awards at the end of the event, but that could be after dark with 80 cars in an event.

I think preregistration only with a 60 car limit is is okay. Walk-on's should be limited to the number of no shows. New folks that walk up can be offered instructor rides if they wish to remain after learning they can't race that day; experienced folks already know the risks of walking on.

And one more thing that is off the subject at hand, tech inspecting a whole bunch of cars takes time. Especially when folks come late or don't finish preparing their car and walk away not to be found again. Tim and I spent almost two hours this morning trying to tech cars and by the drivers meeting two cars still weren't tech'd. It happened last month at B'ville and the month before at SPC. I know; cry me a river, but I thought it worth mentioning while discussing the number of cars allowed at an event.

My recommendations are only worth what you paid.

[Jeremy]

Spin:
Would you be okay with 120 car events at SPC? Three runs, perhaps four if you're lucky. And events that regularly run until 6pm? Where is your personal "selfish" trigger?

120 would probably be too many. But I would at least like to get there before trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

I guess we just have separate goals. I would like to grow the sport of autocross in this area. Note that that does not necessarily mean growing FAST.

Your goals are to get a lot of runs, even if that means disappointing friends, family, and possible first time novices. You guys are not the future of our sport, most of you are one step away from being grumpy old men and it shows in this thread.

I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be.

Oh, and I guess 1 person got turned away today. 1 person. That's like a 2 minute savings and you possibly ruined someone's day, wasted their time and money, and your only advice is register FASTer next time. Is the domain registerFAST.org still available?

Sorry, I can't think of a solution right now.

[Loren]

After talking with several people today, I really think that going strictly pre-reg is the way for us to go at this time. As Steve says, if our novice entries take a hit from that and attendance declines, we can always switch back.

Jeremy, I get what you're saying. Sort of. But, we're a small local club. Our mission is not to "grow the sport". Growing the sport is just a side-effect of what we do.

I don't agree that FAST "isn't the future of our sport". Literally hundreds of people in this area have gotten hooked on autocross through FAST (or the SunRiders/NASA club that it descended from), which clearly makes us a part of the future. While we're proud of our history, and most of us enjoy helping people learn to autocross, "taking all comers" was never our goal. Having fun is our goal. Joe Vance nailed it above, I think. Getting in 6 runs and getting done at a reasonable hour is a big part of a "fun" event by FAST standards... and those are the standards we want to stay true to.

Let SCCA or somebody else step up and be "the big club". FAST was always intended to be "the small club".

[Jeremy]

I don't agree that FAST "isn't the future of our sport".

What I meant was the future Steve, Loren, Chairman of FAST, etc. is out there somewhere and possibly going to be turned away and left with a bad taste in their mouth about FAST. I guess if there are no walk-ons that that is less likely to happen.

So hard cap of 70? When is registration closing? Can we make it stay open until the night before the event, so people are free to cancel at the last minute and then someone can register for their spot online? Say like 8PM the night before the event and then no refunds (event credits) after that. I just hate to see wasted spots.

[Loren]

What I meant was the future Steve, Loren, Chairman of FAST, etc. is out there somewhere and possibly going to be turned away and left with a bad taste in their mouth about FAST. I guess if there are no walk-ons that that is less likely to happen.

Gotcha. We'll have to hope that doesn't happen, I guess.

So hard cap of 70? When is registration closing? Can we make it stay open until the night before the event, so people are free to cancel at the last minute and then someone can register for their spot online? Say like 8PM the night before the event and then no refunds (event credits) after that. I just hate to see wasted spots.

If we go with pre-reg only, I've heard several options presented. One is to set the cap at 75, accept that we typically have an 8-10% no-show rate, and be happy with the resultant 70ish who show up. Your idea isn't bad. Solid 70-driver cap, extend pre-reg later to allow for cancels and late registrations... but 8pm the night before is a bit late. I'd go something like 2-3 days before the event to allow time for run group calculation and such. (yeah, it doesn't take a lot of time to do, but for the person doing it, it's nice to have some flexibility on WHEN you have to do it) Of course, for Brooksville, we still have to submit the registration list to the airport 10 days in advance, and that list can have no more than 75 names on it. (we've tried to get them to let us expand that to allow for more guests/crew, but they're really not interested)

[Native]

Ok, so now it sounds like we're done with walkups at SPC. I guess we'll see how it works.
A cap of 70. As for how long reg. will stay open, I'm thinking I want more than one evening before the event to prepare the paperwork I have to prepare for the events. That's selfish, right. But I don't want to pidgeon-hole myself - a little flexibility is needed. Reg is open for an entire month before the event. It can close 2 or 3 nights before, not one...

edit - just saw Loren's post above...yeah, what he said.

[Loren]

I love it when a plan comes together!

[Jamie]

Ok, so now it sounds like we're done with walkups at SPC. I guess we'll see how it works. A cap of 70.

Received and implemented for 2012.

Reg is open for an entire month before the event. It can close 2 or 3 nights before, not one....

As you guys deliberate that, keep in mind that we usually hit the registration limit well before pre-registration closes. Hanging it out there an extra several days may allow for some extra turnover, but my experience is most of the last-minute no-shows are just that: last minute, due to work changes, last-minute family issues, broken cars, or illness. There's rarely much e-mail traffic about schedule changes the week prior.

[Loren]

Reg is open for an entire month before the event. It can close 2 or 3 nights before, not one....

As you guys deliberate that, keep in mind that we usually hit the registration limit well before pre-registration closes. Hanging it out there an extra several days may allow for some extra turnover, but my experience is most of the last-minute no-shows are just that: last minute, due to work changes, last-minute family issues, broken cars, or illness. There's rarely much e-mail traffic about schedule changes the week prior.

Understood. But, is there any harm in leaving registration open until, say Wednesday evening before the event? If just one or two people benefit from it every now and then, it's no trouble to leave it open... is it?

[anachostic]

If 71 people show up to race, 1 person is getting turned away?

If an event sells out, a person has to get there early, get on a list and then wait around until 9 or 9:15 and hope someone doesn't show up.
This is what a "fun" club does to people? This sounds like one of those "BS" clubs.

I guess so. I arrived after 9 and it seems my reservation was given to (ironically) my friend and co-worker, who was late for online registration and ended up as a walk-up.

I wasn't upset then and have no hard feelings now. I take responsibility for myself. I usually arrive much earlier than I did this time and I don't expect my lateness will happen again. I have a future credit, so I'll be back.

[Jamie]

Reg is open for an entire month before the event. It can close 2 or 3 nights before, not one....

As you guys deliberate that, keep in mind that we usually hit the registration limit well before pre-registration closes. Hanging it out there an extra several days may allow for some extra turnover, but my experience is most of the last-minute no-shows are just that: last minute, due to work changes, last-minute family issues, broken cars, or illness. There's rarely much e-mail traffic about schedule changes the week prior.

Understood. But, is there any harm in leaving registration open until, say Wednesday evening before the event? If just one or two people benefit from it every now and then, it's no trouble to leave it open... is it?

We'd have to try it and see. Right now, I've been able to do them in spare time the weekend before. Probably not a big deal if I or whoever drafts out the run groups has a couple of evenings available to work on it -- not that it requires all that time, but real life commands priority....

[Loren]

We'd have to try it and see. Right now, I've been able to do them in spare time the weekend before. Probably not a big deal if I or whoever drafts out the run groups has a couple of evenings available to work on it -- not that it requires all that time, but real life commands priority....

For something like this, if you (or whoever) don't have time to get to it within the 3 days before the event, just send it to me. Unless I'm out of town or something (and probably even then), I can find time with 2-3 days to do something like this. Not a problem. It's on of those things I'd rather have done before the event, and I'm willing to do myself as-needed.