Event Entry Limits

[Loren]

We've discussed this at various times. Probably fairly recently. But, we need to talk about it again. If nothing else, just to settle my mind about it.

Please read this carefully, and understand that this post is not policy, it's not even a recommendation or a suggestion just yet, merely something to discuss. I could be worrying about something that nobody else thinks is important... I do that sometimes.

If you haven't been paying attention, here's the situation:
FAST Currently has at least 58 people what we consider "members", folks who have attended 4 or more events in the past year. That's an awful lot of "regular" and "semi-regular" autocrossers! We've been selling out 60-70 car events each month for pretty much the past 2-3 years.

We just had another annual novice school. We had 32 students at the school, and we showed them a good time, as we always do. It's a safe bet that at least 10-15 of those will attend at least a few upcoming events, and probably a solid 5 or more will become highly-addicted "regulars", bringing our "membership" to well over 60. I'm sure you can see the problem that this presents!

Current Event Entry Limits:
BROOKSVILLE - Our access list is limited by the airport to 75 names. That has to include non-driving "guests/crew" as well as drivers. So, we've limited registration to 60 drivers and 15 guests.

SPC - Because the site is so small, and to match our limit at Brooksville, we've set that limit at 60 drivers, as well.

Things to consider:
SPC - We've done a couple events recently with 70-75 entries, and as long as we're on our game and keep things organized, it goes pretty well without degrading the quality of our events, or making them run overly long, or cutting our number of runs, or anything else that would be "bad". I think we "could" extend our SPC limit to 75 if we wanted to. I believe there's a 95% chance that the events would STILL sell out with pre-registration.

BROOKSVILLE - This one is a little harder. We could potentially raise the entry limit to 75 entries and just not allow guests. (If you've GOT to have a guest, they're going to have to pay a full entry fee and take a driver slot, whether they drive or not) It's probably just as likely that these events would sell out, too. The question is, is it worth inconveniencing up to 15 drivers who often bring "guests" to make room for 15 additional drivers? (I'm inclined to think that it is... just because we're looking at turning away people that we consider "members", and a driver should have priority over a non-driver... this is, after all, an autocross club)

"MEMBER" DEFINITION - Maybe we should just change our definition of a member to those who have done 6 events? Or 8 events? It would make it harder to "earn" membership status, but it would lower the number that we consider "members", and make the numbers more palatable. If we manipulate that number so that we only have 40 or 45 "members"... does that resolve this perceived problem?

Please discuss.

FYI, for the April event, at this moment (3 days into Pre-Reg), there are 47 entries and 5 guests registered.

[nc4me]

SPC might get cramped in grid with 75 if we do 3 run groups. If we do 4 run groups then it's just one more change over which adds a little time (no biggie, unless people go awol for a while or the chairs aren't on their A game). Either way I'm fine with that. I like the 75 limit at SPC.

B-ville I think we should go to just drivers. It would suck for some people since they always bring someone, but I think it sucks more for someone not to be able to drive because there are guests registered. It would also be nice to have 75 because we could always have 6 work stations instead of 5.
It is really weird not to have any guests though unless someone pays a 30 dollar drivers fee. I think 70 drivers and 5 guests would work. We could still have 6 work stations with 3 people at each station and have a few guests. Yeah either 75 or 70 drivers.

[Jeremy]

Get a loan for $20 million. Build an autocross complex with enough room for us to run two simultaneous courses. Raise the caps to 150 drivers.
Problem solved.

What's wrong with gridding in paddock at SPC. I mentioned it before. No one said anything? Just maybe need to set up cones near the gate to allow space for pedestrians to pass. Or better yet, get a key to the back gate, so we can use that route for pedestrians.

Also has anyone tried to renegotiate the 75 person limit at Brooksville?

[rojeho]

Remember that we are starting to think about this after we just moved the clock and gained daylight. Pulling out of the lot with the trailer at 6:15 during the winter events will mean finishing up packing in the dark or close to it.

[Loren]

SPC might get cramped in grid with 75 if we do 3 run groups.

We had 72 entries yesterday, something like 70 were there. 3 groups. 24 cars in grid. An extra car wouldn't have killed us.

Cramped? A bit. Doable? Absolutely... as long as we're expecting it and plan our grid accordingly.

Adding that 4th run group is something we'd like to avoid. It has proven to add 20-30 minutes to the event due to the required group changeover. That might not sound like much, but when you're already running an event that "on schedule" will run until about 4pm... an extra half an hour is the difference between being packed up and out of there at 5 vs 5:30. Chris, you've chaired events before... you know that when you've been there since the crack of dawn... late is late!

B-ville I think we should go to just drivers....
I think 70 drivers and 5 guests would work....
Yeah either 75 or 70 drivers.

Noted.

[Loren]

What's wrong with gridding in paddock at SPC. I mentioned it before. No one said anything?

Are you suggesting putting the active grid in the parking lot, like 400' away from the start and behind a building? Where they'd have to transit from there to the fenced pad on a public street (yes, that really is a named public street)? Even if they'd let us open the two big gates, I think it would be awkward to say the least.

So, I think no one said anything because either we're not understanding what you're saying, or it just seems like a nutty idea. Might be a topic worthy of it's own thread if you want to pursue it. (be ready to draw a map)

Regardless, why do we need to do that? To get to 75, we don't need a larger grid. (though it would be nice) We just need to commit to doing it.

Also has anyone tried to renegotiate the 75 person limit at Brooksville?

Yes. Their lips say "yes", but the hoops they place before us say "no". They really don't want to do it.

[Loren]

Remember that we are starting to think about this after we just moved the clock and gained daylight. Pulling out of the lot with the trailer at 6:15 during the winter events will mean finishing up packing in the dark or close to it.

Exactly. This is why I'm not a fan of adding a 4th group. 20-30 minutes can, indeed, be the difference between packing up in daylight or darkness.

But, again, we don't need a 4th group to run 75 drivers. 3 groups of 25 works.

6 runs, 30-second overlap, 25 cars = 75 minutes.

15-minutes for a "perfect" group change and you're at a best-case 90 minutes per group. If we get first car off at 10:30, lunch at noon, first car off after lunch at 1:00, we're done right at 4:00. Obviously, you can flex that all over the place. We try to get started before 10:00, and could be done with lunch by 12:30-12:45. Afternoon sessions can run short or long depending on how quickly people jump to work stations, timing problems, etc. But, we should still be done somewhere between about 3:30 and 4:30 in most cases.

Note that a mere 5-second improvement in run overlap (not necessarily course length, just start interval... if the course allows it) would decrease each group run-time by over 10 minutes. That's another 20 minutes of after-lunch time that can be shaved. (and often is)

[Jeremy]

Regardless, why do we need to do that? To get to 75, we don't need a larger grid. (though it would be nice) We just need to commit to doing it.

I didn't think 25 cars could grid at SPC comfortably? It might be awkward, but it would be more comfortable and possibly safer.
I thought that was one of the reasons why SPC caps couldn't be raised.

Also has anyone tried to renegotiate the 75 person limit at Brooksville?

Yes. Their lips say "yes", but the hoops they place before us say "no". They really don't want to do it.

Maybe if it was worded like "75 registered entrants and 10 support staff" (guests to us)?

[Loren]

Regardless, why do we need to do that? To get to 75, we don't need a larger grid. (though it would be nice) We just need to commit to doing it.

I didn't think 25 cars could grid at SPC comfortably? It might be awkward, but it would be more comfortable and possibly safer.
I thought that was one of the reasons why SPC caps couldn't be raised.

Also has anyone tried to renegotiate the 75 person limit at Brooksville?

Yes. Their lips say "yes", but the hoops they place before us say "no". They really don't want to do it.

Maybe if it was worded like "75 registered entrants and 10 support staff" (guests to us)?

Yes, space was our big reason for resisting going much beyond 60 entries at SPC. But, once you've been forced to do it a couple times, you adapt. We actually had 32 cars in grid for the school Saturday... THAT was quite the cluster (but still worked okay because we planned for it). I think 25 is definitely maximum density for a "parked" grid. More would take a "rolling" multi-row grid (like we did at the school), which nobody really likes.

As for Brooksville, it doesn't matter how we word it. The airport isn't looking at our event entry list or our results or anything, they're looking at the access list that we send them... that includes everybody.

[Gerry]

So the problem seems to be time vs space at SPC. I have an idea for shaving off a few minutes...

Let's assume a run/work group order of break, then run, then work. As cars start to get their final runs, the group on break should line up their cars on the street and be in the car, ready to move. Then the current grid worker(s) direct each finished cars out of the grid and one new into the grid. This should overlap the switch time for the run groups and shave off maybe 5-10 minutes. Meanwhile, the new course workers (people that just finished parking after their last run) should already be getting together with their corner captains and ready to move. As soon as the final car has finished, the current grid worker directs the car out of the gate and the final new car into the grid, and the new course workers start walking out to their positions. We'll have a few stragglers, namely the last couple drivers that are probably still parking, but it 90% of our workers will be in place and ready to go.

Essentially, what I'm saying is it should be our responsibility during breaks to preemptively get ready for the switch. The only thing that truly changes is how the grid worker(s) operate; they may work an extra couple minutes or so and now have one new responsibility.

It's not perfect, but maybe someone else can refine this idea?

[Loren]

You guys (some of you) are missing the question.

We know how to shave time at an event. That's NOT the question. We have ample time and know all the tricks to make time should we decide that we need to add "pressure" to save "time". Currently, we don't need to.

The question is SHOULD WE RAISE OUR ENTRY LIMITS at our two sites to 75 to accomodate our current level of "membership". And, perhaps more importantly to some, should we nix the 15 "guest" slots at Brooksville events to allow 75 entries?

[impalanut]

I don't think the limit at Brookesville is a hard limit, but that if we go over the limit we have to pay for a security guard. If I am remembering that correctly, we need to find out the cost. If we have enough entries over the limit it may be cost effective. We do have the space.

[Loren]

I don't think the limit at Brookesville is a hard limit, but that if we go over the limit we have to pay for a security guard. If I am remembering that correctly, we need to find out the cost. If we have enough entries over the limit it may be cost effective. We do have the space.

We have asked, Howard, they didn't have a ready answer. Instead wanting us to schedule a big pow-wow with the Sheriff's department. And Steve reminded me that it's not just one security guard, it's two that they require. At a minimum of $20/hour each. So, $40+ per hour from 7am-5pm. $400 or more. 15 entries brings in $450 less $5/head for lunch, so $375. It could probably be done, but we've been resisting the hassle involved and we already barely break even on SPC events. Brooksville events are what allows the club to have a healthy budget to afford all the fancy equipment that everyone expects us to have.

It's a big ol' can of worms that the Airport folks don't seem to be eager to open... and neither do we if we can avoid it. I can see it now... 75 people waiting outside the gate on Saturday morning being told that we had to cancel the event because our schedule security got called in to work because someone else called out sick or something stupid like that. Having our events rely on nobody but US is a good thing.

[Loren]

Topic split. Discussion about alternate autocross sites here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1204" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[puncturina]

I don't think we should cut off guests totally. 70 drivers and 5 guests might be reasonable.

On the other hand, some of those "guests" might like some excuse not to attend!

[snookwheel]

I don't think we should cut off guests totally. 70 drivers and 5 guests might be reasonable.

On the other hand, some of those "guests" might like some excuse not to attend!

This!

[twistedwankel]

I don't think we should cut off guests totally. 70 drivers and 5 guests might be reasonable.

On the other hand, some of those "guests" might like some excuse not to attend!

This!

+1 and is there any way to have a 5 person standby list for those who miss the cutoff? Even tho' one looks everyday for a cancelation they will probably miss an opening randomly popping up. I know I did at least once. Very frustrating and time consuming.

[jev61]

I vote for up to 75 drivers at B'ville with no guests and 75 drivers at SPC with unlimited guests. Rational: B'ville is the money maker and SPC is spectator friendly.

[Jamie]

I vote for up to 75 drivers at B'ville with no guests and 75 drivers at SPC with unlimited guests. Rational: B'ville is the money maker and SPC is spectator friendly.

This. We already have people asking if they can bring guests after we've hit the 15 limit...cranking it down to 5 just creates more (unnecessary) competition during registration. Trust me....

...is there any way to have a 5 person standby list for those who miss the cutoff? Even tho' one looks everyday for a cancelation they will probably miss an opening randomly popping up. I know I did at least once. Very frustrating and time consuming.

For Brooksville, definitely not possible -- we close registration just before the airport requires us to submit the access roster. There's no option to add or change people at that point, even if someone drops out. IIRC, Loren changed the cutoff for SPC to just a couple of days before the event...that sort of brings it down to the wire for whoever's working out run/work groups, but it's up to them.

[twistedwankel]

...is there any way to have a 5 person standby list for those who miss the cutoff? Even tho' one looks everyday for a cancelation they will probably miss an opening randomly popping up. I know I did at least once. Very frustrating and time consuming.

For Brooksville, definitely not possible -- we close registration just before the airport requires us to submit the access roster. There's no option to add or change people at that point, even if someone drops out. IIRC, Loren changed the cutoff for SPC to just a couple of days before the event...that sort of brings it down to the wire for whoever's working out run/work groups, but it's up to them.

I meant the 60 driver maximum that appears to be happening in fewer days after the event is opened up to register. If one could be automatically kept on a 5 person waiting list in the order they applied they wouldn't have to check again as they would eventually receive an email that says they are in. Worst case they'd be granted a race "credit" to apply to a later event if they didn't get in that event. Just a thought. Not looking to make more unnecessary work for the movers and shakers.

I will be 'out of the office' for the May, June events so there will be an extra seat at those events for someone.