What's a race car?

[Jeremy]

If a "race car" is not street legal... period... all the way down to the tires. What if we take off the race tires and put street tires on it? Should it then be eligible for our M1 class?

Yes

WHERE do you propose we put the line that defines a "streetable" car for our "Modified street tire" classes?

Why do we need a line?

"Interior" is where we presently draw the line. And if people push the limits too far, we'll look at other ways to define things. But, all of our "street tire" classes, including "modified street tire" classes, were intended for daily driven street cars.

I never even heard of this interior rule before Rob's build thread. The rules as I understood them were modifications were unlimited. R1 was for kit cars or tube frame cars. I think somewhere along the line, someone decided to narrow the rules. I am pretty sure the absense of an interior making your car a race car was never discussed here and I don't think that second bullet in the rules has been there the whole time.

R1 is our single class for race cars. We define a race car as follows:

1 Any non-production based vehicle (such as kit cars or tube-framed “look-alikes”) will be classed as a “Race Car” unless deemed an appropriate fit for a lesser class
2 Even though modifications in the “Modified” classes are largely unlimited, we would prefer to see a car that has clearly been stripped, caged, and otherwise turned into what most people would consider to be a “race car” in the Race Car class.

And if it WAS there the whole time I probably never saw it, because why would I look at the rules for R1. Why isn't this rule mentioned in any of the modified class rules where someone would actually be looking?

compete against the guys who actually have to drive their car to work on Monday? And you think that would be fair?

I know a guy that daily drives an XP Shelby Cobra clone and he has no top for it. When it rains he wears goggles. I know people that dialy drive motorcycles. When I bought Charles's 240sx my intention was to daily drive it and I did for a while when my Civic was broken. The presence of an interior would not have affected my decision at all.

[twistedwankel]

Doug, here's a query for you...

If a "race car" is not street legal... period... all the way down to the tires. What if we take off the race tires and put street tires on it? Should it then be eligible for our M1 class? That's an extreme case of what we're talking about here. If we don't have a LINE (even a somewhat fuzzy line) drawn somewhere to separate "modified" from "not-what-most-people-would-consider-to-be-a-street-car", what's to keep that from happening?

I highly doubt one could find "street tires" to fit the crazy wide small diameter rims that race cars often use. So conceivably he could spend the money for another special set of wheels. I'm sure you could spec some 175/15 tires to make the car a pig? M1 certainly does have some "ringer" cars in there. But you have it covered with #2 "Streetable" so no he cannot.

Qualifications for the Modified Category are minimal:
Tires must be treadwear 140 or greater
Cars must be streetable, but modifications are unlimited
Bump up one class for adding forced induction
Bump to donor class OR up one class (whichever is higher) for a significant (+25% HP increase) engine swap that is not a common bolt-in swap that results in a factory-available (US market) configuration


WHERE do you propose we put the line that defines a "streetable" car for our "Modified street tire" classes? People have already ruled out the requirement for a tag or for actually driving the car to the event... I mean, racing a car that you actually drive on the street? You can't be serious! And if they don't drive it on the street, no need to put insurance or a tag on it. And if they did drive it to the track, it might break... so it needs to be trailered.

Will address "trailer queen" later.

Am I poking a little fun here? Sure. But, where do we draw the line? We decided long ago. "Interior" is where we presently draw the line. And if people push the limits too far, we'll look at other ways to define things. But, all of our "street tire" classes, including "modified street tire" classes, were intended for daily driven street cars. If you're trailering the car, there's no reason you shouldn't be running race tires!

The trailer and running race tires certainly is a true statement.

I'll say it again, you can do things to a trailered car that most people wouldn't do to a daily driver. You can go to greater extremes with the alignment, run stiffer suspension, tweak the engine to where it wouldn't be reliable for daily driving, but will hold up well enough for a year or two of running 60-seconds at a time. You can make the car a completely stripped and lightened rattle-trap that nobody would willingly drive to work every day. And what you guys are telling me is that you want to be able to take that trailered "race car" (that's what it's become at this point, whether you choose to call it that or not), put street tires on it, and compete against the guys who actually have to drive their car to work on Monday? And you think that would be fair?

I used to drive to far away events with race tires stuck in my back seat for years. In a "summer car" that sat in my garage 9 months/yr and only saw maybe 3000miles of driving. I have never raced my "daily driver". I have always had AAA+ with 100 mile towing. I have used it 6 times. Once at Brooksville last year. I bought a pickup/trailer to haul my racing car after breaking down 600 miles from home once on a Sunday. You are totally right about having weird camber/toe and not changing tires with a trailer. But I still race a car or cars that are not now nor will they ever be my "daily driver". I have always advised people not to do that. Always keep one more car than you absolutely need. Does this ability give me an unfair advantage over others who put 30k/yr on their car and spill coffee on their seat? Absolutely. I appologize. Maybe that's why I feel I will run up a class in 2013? Where I belong.

Nope. Not buyin' it.

That is a given

[Loren]

But you have it covered with #2 "Streetable"

Clearly, we do not, as we have not sufficiently defined "streetable". We've established that it doesn't have to mean "street driven" in any manner. Have we established anything else?

Jeremy strongly wants completely unlimited mods, which, if you're going to drag the car to the event on a trailer... would truly mean "unlimited". Who are we to say it's not "streetable". Jeremy could drive it to work wearing goggles in the rain!

Seriously, though... you guys have some honest suggestions for how to better define "what is streetable" without giving us an SCCA-level rule set, I'm listening.

Until then, I'm going to stick with "production car", "reasonably complete interior" and "doesn't look like a purpose-built race car". Some people seem to have trouble with that concept. Others get it. (I honestly think that damn near EVERYBODY gets it, some people just choose to be difficult about it) I don't want to write a novel to try to explain it.

And if it makes you feel better, I'll copy the bit from "race car" definition into the "mod car" definition. I'll do that now, maybe it will help eliminate some confusion.

[Jeremy]

Streetable to me means street legal. Which I guess just means you have to have DOT tires, turn signals, etc. It doesn't mean you can't strip an interior or add a cage.

[Loren]

Let me return this to "intent".

The intent of the class is for people to be able to compete (that means "win", in theory) in car that they drive on the street. That's why it's a street tire class, because it's for cars that are driven on the street. So, yes, "street legal" is a start. But, I don't want anyone to feel that they need to strip 200 pounds of weight out of their car to be competitive. What you propose can be taken to a HUGE extreme. All glass other than the windshield could be removed, all interior could be removed, etc. Easily 200+ pounds.

The intent of "unlimited mods" was never so that anyone could "build a car for the class". Until fairly recently, that was never an issue. The intent was so that people could be "creative" with the mods they want to do to their cars without being hindered by an overbearing rule set.

So, I don't think "street legal" is a strong enough definition of "streetable". Lights, wipers, horn, windshield and seat belts are about all that's required to be "street legal". And if we allow it, it's just a matter of time before someone shows up with an old beater econobox with body-by-sawzall that is technically "street legal".

[Jeremy]

just a matter of time before someone shows up with an old beater econobox with body-by-sawzall that is technically "street legal".

I don't think that would happen, and if someone did do it, they are probably not the best driver in the world.

We are just trying to build a car that is fast and safe. If that is not welcome in Modified than we need another class, as I don't think R1 is the proper place. We have/had a few Shelby Cobra drivers in R1 that don't belong there also.

It just sucks because our mod classes are already broken up nicely into 3. In an ideal situation we would need 3 additional classes to mirror those, but for people without interiors. So I think the options are

1. Create one new class (FU), or possibly the "Pro" class that Meier mentioned.
2. Create 2 new classes (FU and FU2) (Figure out a split)
3. Create 3 new classes to mirror the current mod classes (FU, FU2, FUALL)
4. Change "Streetable" to "Street Legal"
5. Do nothing.

[Loren]

just a matter of time before someone shows up with an old beater econobox with body-by-sawzall that is technically "street legal".

I don't think that would happen, and if someone did do it, they are probably not the best driver in the world.

Let's say Jeremy's evil twin did it? Or maybe I get bored, buy a $300 beater and do it myself? "Street legal" is just plain too loose. Admitedly, "streetable" is, too... but at least we can apply some logic to that. If you say "street legal", the state defines that, and it ain't much.

We are just trying to build a car that is fast and safe. If that is not welcome in Modified than we need another class, as I don't think R1 is the proper place. We have/had a few Shelby Cobra drivers in R1 that don't belong there also.

The Cobras are not a production-based car. They're a tube-framed "race car" from the start. To say that they're misclassed because the owner chooses to put shitty all-season tires on it and not properly set the car up is like me showing up in a Miata on all-season tires (wait... what?) with a crappy alignment and arguing that *I* should run in S5 because of my poor setup. BS.

It just sucks because our mod classes are already broken up nicely into 3. In an ideal situation we would need 3 additional classes to mirror those, but for people without interiors.

I agree, our current mod classes are pretty decent, and I don't want to see that disturbed.

So I think the options are

1. Create one new class (FU), or possibly the "Pro" class that Meier mentioned.
2. Create 2 new classes (FU and FU2) (Figure out a split)
3. Create 3 new classes to mirror the current mod classes (FU, FU2, FUALL)
4. Change "Streetable" to "Street Legal"
5. Do nothing.

The "Pro" class is an idea that comes up more and more often. My proposed "narrow street tire class" idea pretty much turned into a discussion of that. It's quite likely that we now have enough drivers who would run such a class to make it worthwhile. But, once again, how do you level the playing field? How can "mere mortals on street tires" compete with something like Howard's car on race tires, for example? We can't use PAX, really, because we don't prepare to SCCA rules.

I think if somebody wants to run with the notion of a "Pro" class, it warrants its own fresh topic. I'd be all for letting THIS topic die (because it's all about "fixing" something that really isn't "broken" in general) in favor of discussing that. In fact, if we can come up with a way to make it work, I'd be all for running in that class myself next season.

If'n y'all wanna do it, somebody start a thread and get to discussing how to make it work.

[Jeremy]

just a matter of time before someone shows up with an old beater econobox with body-by-sawzall that is technically "street legal".

I don't think that would happen, and if someone did do it, they are probably not the best driver in the world.

Let's say Jeremy's evil twin did it? Or maybe I get bored, buy a $300 beater and do it myself? "Street legal" is just plain too loose.

Why would you want to discourage this kind of behavior anyway? Personally, I would like to see more of this.

[Jeremy]

The Cobras are not a production-based car. They're a tube-framed "race car" from the start.

I guess that is questionable. But that is around where MY "line" would be, or where I thought it existed before a few weeks ago. My line = XP/FM. Your line is ASP/FP or SM.
Oddly enough a SM2 car would be legal since street mod rules say you can only remove everything behind the front seats, but a SM car wouldn't be. haha. Charles should have bought a SM2 car.

I'd be all for letting THIS topic die (because it's all about "fixing" something that really isn't "broken" in general)

Did you read this thread? Everyone driving an SM or Prepared SCCA car does not have a home in FAST. Currently that is only 2 people, until I start inspecting cars at the next event. We might be having a large R1 class pretty soon.

[twistedwankel]

1. Create one new class (FU), or possibly the "Pro" class that Meier mentioned.
2. Create 2 new classes (FU and FU2) (Figure out a split)
3. Create 3 new classes to mirror the current mod classes (FU, FU2, FUALL)
4. Change "Streetable" to "Street Legal"
5. Do nothing.

I so want to have magnets that say 69 FUALL on my door next year

Thank you both as this dialog has absolutely made my Sunday.

Doug

[blacksheep-1]

Here's the issue, I was building my car to run modified, was informed that it would not run in that class, so I went berserk in order to be able to compete in the "race car" class and be competitive..which will be tough. You can't really divide up the race car class into "streetable and everything else, the Cobras are not true "production" cars but they are street legal, the same with the Locost. All of those are "streetable" cars yet are also raced, so where do you start (an end) that conversation? Clearly the slot car that showed up at Brookesville was race only but where else is he going to run? I'm just going to build my project the way I want and try to be as competitive as possible. Breaking up the "race car" class probably is not a good option.

[twistedwankel]

It occured to me

I'm guessing no one can get regular car insurance for a "race car" as it isn't in any of their rate bases.

So....If one can produce an insurance card proving the car is "street legal" or is running legal license plates requiring "current insurance" in the State of FL they should be allowed to run in the appropriate Modified Class. Once it is agreed the car is FAST modified class legal they can drop the insurance and plates. Otherwise they have to run Race Class.

Is that fair? I think it is and easily policed. Most cars are driven to the events and the few that are trailered have been around for years and probably are "grandfathered" anyhow.

[Loren]

If you went to your insurance company and asked for insurance for "race car", yeah, they'd probably laugh at you.

But, if you wanted to compete in a class that required tags and insurance for your car that "was" an RX8, but is now a "race car", all you have to do is call the insurance company with the VIN number of your car, call it an "RX8" and not a "race car" to get insurance, then go to the tag office with your title, proof of insurance and a wad of cash and you'll walk out with a tag.

This would just be a hassle and expense for people who have non-tagged autocross cars. Wouldn't really keep anyone with a titled car out of the class, though... as long as they were willing to buy insurance and a tag.

Now, admittedly, you could probably count on one hand the number of trailered, non-tagged cars that have competed in FAST stock or modified classes in the past 3 years. So, requiring a tag and insurance wouldn't affect MOST competitors. If the masses came to me and said they wanted to add that requirement, I wouldn't hesitate to do it. But, it's not something I'm going to actively pursue, myself.

[twistedwankel]

But, if you wanted to compete in a class that required tags and insurance for your car that "was" an RX8, but is now a "race car", all you have to do is call the insurance company with the VIN number of your car, call it an "RX8" and not a "race car" to get insurance, then go to the tag office with your title, proof of insurance and a wad of cash and you'll walk out with a tag.

I do have to agree the vast majority of 6spd Rx8's on their websites ARE highly modified for the track and apparently still street driven or being sold for parts due to what would be a fender bender in a normal car. aka No resale with 100k on the clock. AND they only sold about 1100 of them in the USA the last couple of years making them rarer than most cars. Even the DMV listed it as a 2 door on my registration by mistake. So yes I guess it is one of the few "4 door" race cars out there AND yes since it's all ready insured and has a plate I could just say "nothing" and mod the crap out of it like most people seem to be doing with theirs.

Would I do that for a t-shirt? Never :yawn: Two t-shirts? Maybe.

[Jeremy]

R2 seems to already have a lot of "race cars" in it. So let's just make that the refuge of the bastard child cars for which Loren refuses to recognize their need for a home.

(Looking through the results, I do see a few questionable cars in other mod classes, but it seems all the heavy hitters are already in R2.)

So, I am going to declare R2 the safe haven for cars that are outcast by their peers because those people think it's the car that's beating them and not the driver.

XP cars and below are welcome in R2. SCCA mod cars stay in R1. Deal?
(for the non-scca people, I am not sure how to describe XP cars, sorry. I guess it's basically if it looks like a car somewhat it's not a mod car)

I may be overstepping my boundaries here, but I would like to welcome all the cobras to run in R2 if they wish. Welcome home my brothers.

Since we are on the topic of R2, can we please let Jamie run in stock again with his "illegal" camber? I am tired of getting beat up by his car. He must have some secret illegal mods in there somewhere.

[Loren]

Jeremy, maybe you should start your own autocross club that can be run exactly the way YOU want it to be?

You might not see it this way, but I see you asking us to change our rules and/or create new classes to cater to a whole group of cars that we INTENTIONALLY left "out in the cold" with our classing. If we make our club appeal to them, then we'll have another group of people trying to get into our already full events.

This may sound harsh, but I don't care if the guys with the built "race cars" on "race tires" (or even street tires) come to our events. They're welcome, there a couple classes they can play in, they're just not our "focus". We didn't build FAST for them. We built it for guys who compete in street cars, and we've got more of them than we can deal with already. As Doug is fond of saying: The program works. And I've said a few times in this thread: I don't see anything "broken" that needs to be fixed here.

You can continue spinning hyperbole all you want, but it's you against the world here.

And, no, the Cobras are not welcome in R2. They are not production cars.

[Jeremy]

Why are you such a hater?

Jeremy, maybe you should start your own autocross club that can be run exactly the way YOU want it to be?

This is an idiotic statement. If this was a rule that you wanted (like your stupid camber rule which affected one person?), it would be put up for a vote and people would vote for it, because most people don't care that much and rightfully so.

You might not see it this way, but I see you asking us to change our rules and/or create new classes to cater to a whole group of cars that we INTENTIONALLY left "out in the cold" with our classing. If we make our club appeal to them, then we'll have another group of people trying to get into our already full events.

This is another idiotic statement. You think people aren't coming to FAST events because there is a small gap between modified and race cars. HAHAHAAHAHAHAHA OH NO DON"T OPEN THE FLOODGATES

This may sound harsh, but I don't care if the guys with the built "race cars" on "race tires" (or even street tires) come to our events. They're welcome, there a couple classes they can play in, they're just not our "focus". We didn't build FAST for them. We built it for guys who compete in street cars, and we've got more of them than we can deal with already. As Doug is fond of saying: The program works. And I've said a few times in this thread: I don't see anything "broken" that needs to be fixed here.

There are not a couple classes, there is 1.

You can continue spinning hyperbole all you want, but it's you against the world here.

Reread this thread.

And, no, the Cobras are not welcome in R2. They are not production cars.

Manufacturer AC Cars
Also called Shelby Cobra
Production 1961–1967