20 Sept Post-Event

[jesup16]

Now how do we police people with factory turbo cars from cranking the boost to the moon? Now factory turbo cars have the advantage instead of aftermarket turbo cars.

That's the problem with all classes (especially non-stock classes) that include factory turbo cars. I run in STU, which by SCCA rule, requires stock boost levels. I've been to events where I know for a fact the cars were running ~3-5 psi over stock boost.

It's a big reason why national guys are wanting to remove the boost rules in ST classes because it's impossible to police. It's basically the honor code.

However, more manufacturer's are supporting turbo's e.g. every model of BMW this year is turbocharged. Even the 2015 Mustang is offered with EcoBoost.

In regards to aftermarket turbo cars, that's why they go straight to SM/SSM (or as I propose, M0 in FAST), so that the rules don't have to list levels of boost, certain turbochargers, etc.

It's silly to think that an aftermarket turbo'd car would go from STS/STC to STX/STU or ESP to BSP/ASP (for examples). Or in the case of fast, from M3/M2 to M2/M1.

[Loren]

That's the problem with all classes (especially non-stock classes) that include factory turbo cars. I run in STU, which by SCCA rule, requires stock boost levels. I've been to events where I know for a fact the cars were running ~3-5 psi over stock boost.

It's a big reason why national guys are wanting to remove the boost rules in ST classes because it's impossible to police. It's basically the honor code.

Welcome to SCCA classing discussions circa 1998. Nothing new here. Nothing new at all.

It's silly to think that an aftermarket turbo'd car would go from STS/STC to STX/STU or ESP to BSP/ASP (for examples). Or in the case of fast, from M3/M2 to M2/M1.

It's equally silly to think that just adding 50 or 100 hp to a car should bump it up to our absolute fastest street tire class without regard to what the car is or where it was originally classed.

You're complaining (don't say you're not, you are) about something that has absolutely NOT been a problem for us. And if it becomes a problem, we'll deal with it.

You know our ruleset for Mod classes doesn't prevent you from doing internal engine modifications, anything you want to the transmission or diff, anything you want to the suspension short of cutting and welding, and run any wheels and tires you want (as long as they're street tires)? We're going to allow all of that, but pick on the guy who adds a turbo and send him straight to M0? Seriously? No, we're not.

[jesup16]

By the way, how many years have you spent modifying, preparing, developing and learning the intricacies of your Subaru to know that you can't get any more out of it? Jeremy and Charles have been competing in and developing that 240 for 4-5 years.

I'm not challenging Jeremy/Charles knowledge or build of the 240. I think it's an awesome car. And I know both Jeremy and Charles are top quality drivers. I'll gladly compete against Jeremy and Charles, but I truly believe the car is mis-classed. According to class list for mod cars from fast website, SSP is M0. This car is way closer to (or beyond) SSP car than STU (M1) and STX/STR (M2)

So what class is the car built to?

In the end, I know that no one will re-class the car.

[Loren]

You're over-thinking the hell out of this and trying to tie FAST classing into SCCA classing way more than you should.

Our rules are as simple as they can possibly be.

Look at the stock rules. Is the car stock?
The 240 is not stock. Suspension and engine swap and turbo... that's enough. Not stock. Move on to modified.

Look at the mod class listings. Where is the car listed?
M3.

Look at the mod prep restrictions. Does it exceed any of them?
It has a common bolt-in engine swap. More than 25% increase in power? No. Okay, no problem, still M3.
It has a turbocharger. Okay, that bumps it up a class.

The car is properly classed in accordance with FAST rules in M2.

If you don't like our rules, I'm sorry. They are what they are. If enough people were to express concerns, we would consider making changes for NEXT SEASON maybe, but the rules will definitely not change again before then. And, honestly, I think most people are okay with our rules as they are.

[jesup16]

Well, there's no black & white here. According to FAST Rules, it's M2. According to FAST rules based on SCCA, it's M0. The FAST rules supercede the SCCA rules. So it is what it is.

I continually support FAST as one of the premier clubs in FL and probably the most novice/newbie friendly.

For the sake of classifying modified cars, especially when newbies show up with strange street builds, I totally get that, too.

[Loren]

Well, there's no black & white here. According to FAST Rules, it's M2.

The only muddy part in this case is the engine swap. We called together a committee and made a decision on that a long time ago, so it's no longer muddy. We're allowing the engine swap. Everything else is black and white... and fits on one page of our website.

According to FAST rules based on SCCA, it's M0. The FAST rules supercede the SCCA rules. So it is what it is.

The above makes no sense whatsoever. You're trying to make connections to rules that don't exist. I ran through the fast classing process for you. It's that simple.

To be clear, we DON'T CARE how SCCA would class the car based on the SCCA prep rules. We're saying BASED ON FAST RULES the car is modified. Because it's modified, we refer you to the modified classing list. (That list happens to be based on SCCA Street Touring, but that DOES NOT MATTER, and SCCA classing or rules plays absolutely NO other role in how we class a car. Period.) That gives us the car's base class. From there, we may bump it up in accordance with the FAST RULES. Notice that at no point do we do anything at all in accordance with the SCCA rules.

Check your SCCA rule book at the door, you don't need it here. If you understand and accept that, then you will see that there's nothing at all that would put an M3 car into M0 except for "cutting and welding" and other things that specifically aren't allowed in M1, M2, or M3. You just have to get your prejudice for SCCA classing out of your head. It simply doesn't apply.

What's next, some Porsche guy is gonna come and tell me that their P3 car shouldn't have to compete against a P1 car? And there's no way PCA would ever allow mods like that in this class... it's ridiculous.

[jesup16]

Loren, I simply stated my opinion of the car. I was not privy to the conversation that took places years ago about the motor swap and other mods. I don't even know how much power that car makes.

Also, I know nothing about Porsche P1 vs P3 cars.

[Jeremy]

Jesse, you have 10 months to come up with a solution and propose it for next year. I don't think sending all aftermarket turbo cars to M0 is the answer when, as stated, turbocharging is becoming more and more popular from the factory.

I think that this task was made significantly harder now that the M classes are based off ST where boost is unchanged VS. SP where boost changes are accounted for. I think it was a mistake to head in that direction, but Loren has always hated that our street tire classes were based off a race tire structure. So a potentially easy fix, adjusting were DSP starts (240sx) to now trying to shuffle tons of cars to make it "work".

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that if you changed the boost on an STI then you would be in SM also, same as the 240. So just because you don't want to prepare your car to the extent of the rules, doesn't mean everyone else gets penalized. (I think that's a correct statement, haven't been to an SCCA event in years)

[Charles]

I don't even know how much power that car makes.

Never been tested, ~ 250hp so the power:weight should be pretty close to a Sti with a tune/bolt-ons. Still running stock SR injectors and MAF.

Stock SR power is 205hp

[jesup16]

Jesse, you have 10 months to come up with a solution and propose it for next year. I don't think sending all aftermarket turbo cars to M0 is the answer when, as stated, turbocharging is becoming more and more popular from the factory.

I think that this task was made significantly harder now that the M classes are based off ST where boost is unchanged VS. SP where boost changes are accounted for. I think it was a mistake to head in that direction, but Loren has always hated that our street tire classes were based off a race tire structure. So a potentially easy fix, adjusting were DSP starts (240sx) to now trying to shuffle tons of cars to make it "work".

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that if you changed the boost on an STI then you would be in SM also, same as the 240. So just because you don't want to prepare your car to the extent of the rules, doesn't mean everyone else gets penalized. (I think that's a correct statement, haven't been to an SCCA event in years)

I have no intention of rewriting FAST Rules. When I was a beginner and didn't understand or know anything about SCCA classes, I thought they were great. Now that I'm focusing on STU (a fast M1 class), I'm quickly realizing that I'm growing out of the FAST classing culture. Side note, STU seems to be a dying class, even though SCCA threw in the 350z and C5...don't even get me started on that.

Yes, if I turn the boost up on my car, I have to go to ASP or SM. But I don't. In fact, my car is stock from an engine mod standpoint, except the factory SPT exhaust. I'm also limited to 245 tires in STU. So for FAST, I could through on 285's, bolt-on a header, add catless DP, and tune the car to easily 400hp and still be in m1. But that puts me in no-man's land in SCCA rules. I

But, as Loren said. FAST doesn't follow or really use SCCA rules. However, if I did have a swapped 240, knew what class I was in for SCCA (SM), and I went to the FAST website, the mod-class listing would direct me to M0. Hence my point that it should be M0.

[Loren]

However, if I did have a swapped 240, knew what class I was in for SCCA (SM), and I went to the FAST website, the mod-class listing would direct me to M0. Hence my point that it should be M0.

Here you go again.

I like to think I'm pretty familiar with the FAST rules, as I've been very involved in creating them, and I've edited every bit of the text on the website. I don't have them all memorized, but I'm familiar with the major points.

Where are you finding a reference to "SM" in the FAST rules? Seriously, you've had me chasing my tail all afternoon looking for it, and I don't see it. You're making me crazy. Tell me where it is!

[Jeremy]

I think he is saying that since SM is not listed on the class listings, that an SM car is not eligible for any Mod class except the catch-all M0.
He's just looking at it wrong.

An STU car leaves a lot on the table when it comes to FAST prep rules.
So you can prep an STU car or an M1 car, you choose. But don't get mad at the m1 cars cause you chose to prep to STU allowances. Crank up the boost put on some 18x10's and have fun with the rest of the Mod cars, or continue to prep your car to SCCA's bible.

[Loren]

I think he is saying that since SM is not listed on the class listings, that an SM car is not eligible for any Mod class except the catch-all M0.
He's just looking at it wrong.

I've been saying that all along.

An STU car leaves a lot on the table when it comes to FAST prep rules.
So you can prep an STU car or an M1 car, you choose. But don't get mad at the m1 cars cause you chose to prep to STU allowances. Crank up the boost put on some 18x10's and have fun with the rest of the Mod cars, or continue to prep your car to SCCA's bible.

FAST rules were never intended to be "maxed out". We're a small, local club, and we never expected anyone to go nuts and try to "build a car to the rules". And most people don't. They do the mods that they want to do. The mods that they can afford. The mods that they're willing to live with on the street. A very small group of people have started to "build cars for the class"... and some of that is what led to the creation of "Open Modified" in the first place. People were showing a willingness to go too far beyond our loose "intent" for the original M1, M2 & M3 classes, so we had to put a lid on it.

It still amazes me that people are trying to build a car that is maxed out to the nearly unlimied FAST prep rules... all in pursuit of a handful of stickers and a t-shirt.

But, still. For now, I don't think our classing is broken. If ONE of those 5 or so people who are "building to the rules" comes up with some sort of monster car that just absolutely dominates, we'll suggest that they run in a faster class. Odds are very good that they will voluntarily do so. FAST people are cool like that.

[jesup16]

Jeremy, yes, SM or SSP, refers to M0.

Loren, don't take it so seriously and certainly don't lose any more hair over it (I'm bald, too). I'm just having some friendly conversation. FAST classes are not broken. Hopefully I'm one of those "cool FAST people".

Also, In my personal opinion. Cars should not be "bumping" classes. For example, an M2 car bumping to M1. It should be in M2 because it is running with like cars.

Again, I know SCCA has nothing to do with FAST but...In SCCA, STX cars cannot bump to STU. Cars are grouped with like cars. The classes are not ranked on performance as much as they are grouped with like cars.

This year at nat's, STX (M2) was way faster than STU (M1). Also, STR (M2) was faster than STU (M1). Logic would think that STU would be faster, but it wasn't. It would have been totally unfair (and illegal) for a STX car to compete in STU.

SO, why should M2 cars be allowed to run in M1. There will be track designs that cater to certain classes. It is entirely feasible that M2 car can be faster than an M1 car. So someone in M2 could bump to M1 and win that class, but might not be fast enough to win M2. I'm just sayin...

In Jeremy's case, he was fast enough to win either class last week.

[Jeremy]

Jeremy, yes, SM or SSP, refers to M0.

No it doesn't. SSP does not equal SM. And SM is not mentioned anywhere. You are assuming that since SM is not mentioned that it is illegal. That is the SCCA mentality. "If the rulebook doesn't say you can, you can't". FAST is exactly the opposite. "If it doesn't say you can't, you can."

In SCCA, STX cars cannot bump to STU.

You sure about that? I've had friends drive STS cars in STX at the National championships.

EDIT: I am talking about the previous STS and STX definitions. It was a 90's civic.

[Loren]

Jeremy, yes, SM or SSP, refers to M0.

In your mind, I guess.

In my mind, we put SSP cars into M0 because they're WAY too fast to be in any of the other mod classes. That's the only reason, it's the only connection. It was just a convenient list of ridiculously fast cars that could be put there.

Otherwise, while M0 might be similar in concept to SM, there is no connection other than whatever connection you've chosen to make in your head. And yet, you keep saying things like "if I did have a swapped 240, knew what class I was in for SCCA (SM), and I went to the FAST website, the mod-class listing would direct me to M0"... which is not true at all, nothing anywhere in the FAST rules says anything of the sort. And it confuses the hell out of ME to hear you say things like that, I can only imagine how confusing it would be to someone who wasn't familiar with the FAST rules.

And you'd be surprised at just how often I hear "well some experienced person told me that was the rule"... and what they were told was completely wrong. How 'bout if you either actually READ AND UNDERSTAND the FAST rules, or quit quoting them incorrectly and spewing misinformation? It really IS a problem. You're not the only one who's doing it.

Regarding bumping, yeah, I know that it doesn't work all that well with the new classing. But, short of creating a lot of intermediate classes and much more complicated rules, I'm not sure there's a way around it.

[Jeremy]

Here is the SCCA bumping order. I don't think anyone will care if you bump yourself up as high as you'd like. People do this to get around the SCCA rule that a car can only run in the same class twice. So for a third driver, bump to the next class and run...

http://www.wtrscca.org/bumpingorder.pdf

[jesup16]

I was misreading SSP as SM. Either way, one would be lead to believe that SM would be the equivalent of SSP, not STX.

I'm perfectly happy to be beaten by more prepared cars for FAST. I never mentioned/complained at all that Tim smoked my ass in his STI. But if Chris Hammer would have bumped classes, he would have taken second in M1, not Tim. That should not be allowed.

I guess I'll just have to look at FAST as more of fun events and focus my attention to SCCA and Martin for competitive events. After all, that is my goal.

[Loren]

In SCCA, STX cars cannot bump to STU.

You sure about that?

Copy-pasted right out of the SCCA rulebook:
(FAST classing put STS down below STX/STR because M3 is the only class that we maintain the limited slip diff and tire width restriction, otherwise, we're pretty well inline with the SCCA's bumping order.)

STOCK CATEGORY
FS→ ──────────────┐
HS→GS→DS→ES→CS→BS→AS→SS→Street Prepared class as
appropriate
STREET TOURING® CATEGORY
STF→STC→STX→STS→STR→STU→Street Prepared class as appropriate
STREET PREPARED CATEGORY
ESP→ ─────────┐
FSP→DSP→CSP→BSP→ASP→SSP→Street Modifi ed class as appropriate
STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY
SMF→SM→SSM→XP (or other Prepared class if appropriate)
PREPARED CATEGORY
CP→ ──────────┐
GP→DP→EP→FP→XP→EM (or DM if appropriate)
MODIFIED CATEGORY
DM→EM→ ┐
CM→FM→BM→AM
KART CATEGORY
KM→BM

[jesup16]

Loren,

My intention is not to spread misinformation. My intention is to express my opinion. If that's not allowed, then I'm sorry. I'll keep my mouth shut and just show up and drive.

FAST has it's own unique rules. I understand it's for a reason. I'm asking for clarification on those reasons and simply pointing out other points of views (that may or may not have been previously expressed) as they relate.

I seriously doubt there's any other person's (especially people that don't know FAST rules) following this conversation and becoming confused.

I've expressed my thoughts about having more SCCA relevant "mod" classes with FAST. I now completely understand FAST's intentions.

After all, isn't good for others to read this conversation for the sake of clarity.