Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

For any discussion about the club as an organization

Here's how I feel about these rule changes for the 2017-18 Season...

Poll ended at Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:57 pm

Yeah, I'm cool with all of that
9
35%
Don't like the Stock tire width limit
8
31%
Don't like moving AS up to S0
1
4%
Don't like moving CS up to S1
2
8%
Don't like the M4 205 tire width limit
3
12%
Don't like moving AS up to M0
1
4%
Don't like moving CS up to M1
2
8%
 
Total votes: 26
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:53 pm

PrestonJ wrote:Any talk about starting a pro class based on SCCA classing and the PAX system? Works well for a lot of other clubs, can potentially limit any rule change at all, those who actually compete outside of FAST can simply run in pro and be rack and stacked against each other. Not sure what timing software you use though, pretty easy to do with AXware.
PAX doesn't work for FAST because our prep rules are less restrictive than what the indexes are based on. It really only works well when all of the drivers are in "class capable cars" that are fully prepared to the limit of the rules. None of that really fits the typical FAST demographic. A lot of our fastest drivers (who might have interest in a "pro" class) drive cars that would be complete bastard-children under SCCA classing, and thus would be screwed in PAX.

Mike Lawson recently started competing with us. And yourself. You guys are the exception rather than the rule. Percentage-wise... maybe 5% of our regulars care about being SCCA class legal or competitive in that environment. And most of those guys are happy competing in our existing classes.

I could be wrong, but that's my take. To answer your specific question, no, there's been no such talk.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby twistedwankel » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:45 pm

I hope the +20mm tire width rule gets decided like by June? Might be needing a set of tires by then or have to start running the traveling DW's again until a final decision is made.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Z1NONLY » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:27 pm

Loren wrote:
PrestonJ wrote:Any talk about starting a pro class based on SCCA classing and the PAX system? Works well for a lot of other clubs, can potentially limit any rule change at all, those who actually compete outside of FAST can simply run in pro and be rack and stacked against each other. Not sure what timing software you use though, pretty easy to do with AXware.
PAX doesn't work for FAST because our prep rules are less restrictive than what the indexes are based on. It really only works well when all of the drivers are in "class capable cars" that are fully prepared to the limit of the rules. None of that really fits the typical FAST demographic. A lot of our fastest drivers (who might have interest in a "pro" class) drive cars that would be complete bastard-children under SCCA classing, and thus would be screwed in PAX.

Mike Lawson recently started competing with us. And yourself. You guys are the exception rather than the rule. Percentage-wise... maybe 5% of our regulars care about being SCCA class legal or competitive in that environment. And most of those guys are happy competing in our existing classes.

I could be wrong, but that's my take. To answer your specific question, no, there's been no such talk.
I actually just commented about how well Preston "paxed" in the other thread before I even saw this question. In my case. you are correct. I'm happy competing within your existing system/rules. (And not just because it hid the fact that Preston out-drove me at the last event :salute: )
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby PrestonJ » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:42 pm

Loren wrote:
PrestonJ wrote:Any talk about starting a pro class based on SCCA classing and the PAX system? Works well for a lot of other clubs, can potentially limit any rule change at all, those who actually compete outside of FAST can simply run in pro and be rack and stacked against each other. Not sure what timing software you use though, pretty easy to do with AXware.
PAX doesn't work for FAST because our prep rules are less restrictive than what the indexes are based on. It really only works well when all of the drivers are in "class capable cars" that are fully prepared to the limit of the rules. None of that really fits the typical FAST demographic. A lot of our fastest drivers (who might have interest in a "pro" class) drive cars that would be complete bastard-children under SCCA classing, and thus would be screwed in PAX.

Mike Lawson recently started competing with us. And yourself. You guys are the exception rather than the rule. Percentage-wise... maybe 5% of our regulars care about being SCCA class legal or competitive in that environment. And most of those guys are happy competing in our existing classes.

I could be wrong, but that's my take. To answer your specific question, no, there's been no such talk.
Cool, stick with what works. If there is no one to fill a class, for sure no reason to create it. Not really knowing the club demographic I just threw it out there, SCCA rules is what I know and I saw some good drivers out there (without knowing their actual setups) that might be interested in such a class. I don't mind the grass roots rule set at all, in fact I think FAST does a pretty good job keeping simplicity and competition hand in hand, something the SCCA cannot offer if you have ever read their rule manual...
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby twistedwankel » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:49 pm

20mm vs 30mm tire increases.
It occurred to me. Why would one reward the fat tired cars with 30mm and punish skinny tired cars with 20mm? Seems counter productive. But then I'm not a scientist. Maybe it's all about percentages? What are the "odds"?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Native » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:57 pm

Loren wrote:Overal Stock Tire Width Limit...

I was just thinking about this, and for cars with WIDE tires, 20mm isn't such a huge change. Someone with 245's, for instance, might go to 275's without issue. Someone with 275's might go to 305.

What if, instead of a hard +20mm, we did something like a 10% allowance. Stock +10% and round up (no more than 6mm) or down a standard size.

So, for 195, that would be 204.5 rounds to 205.
205 > 225.5 rounds to 225
215 > 236.5 rounds to 235
225 > 247.5 rounds to 245
235 > 258.5 rounds to 255
245 > 269.5 rounds to up (within 6mm) to 275
275 > 302.5 rounds to 305

Or, we could simplify and accomplish the same by saying +20mm if tire size is less than 245. 245 and over gets +30mm.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:58 pm

If you read further back in this thread, I did a thought excersize about percentages... and that is, indeed, how we came up with the 20/30mm numbers. (I see Steve quoted it above)

BTW, this poll ends next week. Nothing is decided yet. We'll figure things out after the poll ends using the poll data and feedback from this thread and elsewhere. Should have things formalized by mid-May.
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby twistedwankel » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:14 pm

Loren wrote:BTW, this poll ends next week. Nothing is decided yet. We'll figure things out after the poll ends using the poll data and feedback from this thread and elsewhere. Should have things formalized by mid-May.
Cool. Well within my 2018 tire plan. Thanks. :thumbwink:

**My true confessions on which size tires I select other than price/availability/quality based on tests. Normally I find the widest tire that will properly fit my wheel based on Tire Rack specs or Goodyear, etc. Then I compare that tire to the diameter that came on the car. That matters most to me. I want to never have to shift into 3rd gear and then back again to 2nd. Normally going up one tire size keeps the diameter very close. Go up two sizes and the car physically can drop 1/2" to 1". This changes the final drive ratio anywhere from 5-10% and shift points at rev limit drop thud. Also you might have to drive up on planks to get a jack under the car. I want to be able to go at least 65mph in 2nd gear. Simple. Both of my current cars still exceed that with short/wide tires. The only xcross cars I've increased the stock diameter of was a 99 Miata because it droned at 70mph in 5th and an automatic turbo Starion so I could frequently run an entire course in 1st gear 55mph and downshift @ 35mph if in 2nd.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby twistedwankel » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:38 pm

"Street Tires?
Made it past all the “stock” qualifiers? Good, now let’s look at your tires. This is simple. If they are DOT approved and their treadwear rating is 140 or greater (check the sidewalls), we consider them street tires. (NOTE: A handful of cars come from the factory with tires that do not meet this qualification. It’s a big deal to us! If your tires have less than 140 treadwear, sorry, you can’t compete in a street tire class.)"


So is this 140 wear rule still going to be valid? My RX8 came from the factory with 140 tires but no other club I'm associated with accepts them for competition anymore.

Any chance you will relax the width rules to unlimited if one runs in excess of 200 wear tires and delete the 140 allowance all together?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:23 pm

We're not changing the 140 rule. And most of the top-tier tires are 200, anyway.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:30 am

Any last thoughts or votes before this poll ends and Steve and I start making decisions?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby mdw1000 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:41 am

I already suck in S2 with my Miata [emoji1]

Probably a stupid question, but why is SCCA dropping the Toyobaru to a lower class? I thought they were supposed to be great autocross cars?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:54 am

I can't answer that. I bet if you look at National level autocross results, it might be somewhat clear.

SCCA does cater their classing a little bit to "what's popular". My guess would be that Miatas are still popular, and the ToyoSciBaru is very popular. They want BOTH cars to be competitive. Perhaps the Miatas are marginally faster? Put the Miatas in one class, the BRZ in another, everybody wins?

That's my guess without looking into the details.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby twistedwankel » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:33 pm

mdw1000 wrote:Probably a stupid question, but why is SCCA dropping the Toyobaru to a lower class? I thought they were supposed to be great autocross cars?
The C Street Toyota with the trunk kit is so much faster than the normal brz/f86 and they won't let them add it later. D Street mostly has a back seat WRX is fast. C Street mostly only has two seats. The 2016 Miata is a very superior car in C Street compared to previous years of MX5.

Used to be prior year national results would move cars around. The last couple of Lincoln events had a lot of rain affect results so who knows now? They moved a lot of cars in 2017!! Like Loren said.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:39 pm

Getting off-topic a little bit, but the topic is pretty much done anyway...

Did they put the new Miata in CS? I'd have guessed BS.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Z1NONLY » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:59 pm

ND's are in CS. Non-TRD 13-16 twins are in DS. All twins with TRD parts are in CS and all 17's are in CS. (TRD parts or not)

The TRD twins are faster than non-TRD 13-16 twins, but not fast enough to cover the pax difference. I did 6 runs on our test & tune course in my CS TRD car and then hopped in a DS twin and paxed my car in a single run.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:58 pm

It's okay, Mike. Someday they'll lump all of the twins together into ES like they did with all of the NA/NB Miatae, including the Mazdaspeed.

And then all the NA/NB Miatas will move to HS. And the slowest car that can be competitive in an autocross will then be a 1994 Miata.

Such is progress, I suppose.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sat May 06, 2017 11:49 pm

So, here's what's been decided:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2836
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