define "stock"

[Anonymous]

OK, how about if I replaced my rear view mirror with a Batman mirror?? Would that change anything??

I don't think anybody's gonna sweat a mirror.

(if we were playing under SCCA rules, it would fall under the "comfort and convenience" allowance)

I hope you were not taking me serious?!

[Loren]

I hope you were not taking me serious?!

Never can tell with the Mustang guys.

[Native]

please lock this thread.

Never!!

[blacksheep-1]

OK, here's one, it would appear that you will allow the use of bolt in roll bars (I assume bolt in cages are a big no no) because it would aid in chassis stiffening too much and negate the whole "production" thing (Both welded bars and complete cages of any type would be banned).
Here's the question, based on that ^ would you allow bolt in subframe connectors (convertibles already have them for obvious reasons), not "weld in" but the standard issue factory bolt ins?
You may not know about us Mustang guys but see how we help clean up the rules prior to someone showing up with this stuff? The reason is that this is a very common practice, almost a first mod on mustangs to keep the windshield in, the doors closing, and the floorpan from wrinkling. You might even do an "either OR thing" either the bars OR the connectors but not both.
Just a thought..........

[Loren]

From the rules that Jamie posted earlier in this thread, "modified" includes:

"Welded chassis reinforcement, including welded roll bars/cages "

No mention is made of bolt-in anything, so that's allowed in the production classes. Braces, bars, subframe connectors, rollbars, roll cages, whatever weight you want to add to your car is fine! As long as it's not welded in.

(yet another case of the rules being quite adequate and clear... and yeah, we all know about Mustangs and their subframe connectors)

[blacksheep-1]

there' clear,
then there's "clear"

[Loren]

there' clear,
then there's "clear"

Once you understand and accept that we have no intention of jerking anyone around with our rules and that they mean quite simply what they say... no more, no less... they really are quite clear.

"Modified cars are production-based cars with any of the following modifications:"

> List of 7 modifications

"Any and all modifications not listed above are allowed in the production classes."

I'm not sure how it could be simpler or more clear. It says what it means, it means what it says.

[treekiller]

It's funny, SCCA rallycross rules. are very simple also, and it works.. the fact that solo-II needs a 200 page rulebook is just crazy. the interesting thing is, despite the rule set, your are going to have your fast guys and your also-rans. FAST rules are easy and simple, It's funny but whenever I see someone sweating the rules it's usually something that can be solved with a driver mod. best quote ever on this topic... "Why are you being a rule Lawyer? so you can really push for 27th in pax"

It's a game guys. we do it for FUN!!! don't loose sleep over it. I've had more fun in underprepaired and uncompeditive cars then I ever had in a class killer. since if you have the top dog your expected to drive like the top dog every time.. and I can say more then any suspension or subframe mod, if I can be in the groove, then everything falls into place. when I'm not I just have fun. The real value is the lessons learned, since long after that car your driving has been junked, you'll still have the knowledge gained.

Jeff

[Jamie]

It's funny, SCCA rallycross rules. are very simple also, and it works..

They're simple now...just like FAST rules started out simple(r). It's also a truism that most of the people who come in saying, "I don't care where my car's classed, I'm just running for fun," rapidly become disenchanted with a ruleset that doesn't allow their car, prepped as they like to drive it, to do as well as they think it should. I don't think the FAST ruleset would work anywhere except here...and as additional drivers with different cars "join", they'll have opinions, just like the opinions that drove the street-tire production class reorganization. Ditto SCCA rallycross -- it's still small, and the number of different cars competing is still fairly small.

the fact that solo-II needs a 200 page rulebook is just crazy.

Actually, most of the pages in the Solo rulebook result from two things: first, the fact that Solo makes at least a modest attempt to class all cars -- at least from the mid-50s on -- in most, if not all modification categories. Second, the Prepared classes, which try to translate the road-racing Production ruleset into Solo. The Stock, ST, and SP rules are pretty straightforward.

All else, quite true....

[Native]

It's a game guys. we do it for FUN!

All else, quite true....

FAST = FUN
FUN = TRUE

Ahhh, FAST...True.

[treekiller]

autocross is still 90% driver and 10% car, we can never forget that.

[WAFlowers]

stock: a flavored liquid used as the base for many different types of foods. Stock is obtained by long, slow cooking of vegetables, bones or meat in water.

[Jamie]

Stock is obtained by long, slow cooking....

That explains my times recently...I'm still slowly cooking....

[blacksheep-1]

IMO the driver is about 25% maybe 40% tops, the tires are about 70% (unfortunately)

[Loren]

There are an awful lot of variables in autocross, but if you take all of those variable out of the equation and JUST look at the driver, I think you'll see that the driver is more like 60-80%.

I'll try to justify that since I don't feel like working this morning...

To remove all other variables, our drivers have to be in the same car. Let's say for argument's sake that the car is the car that is capable of setting FTD for a given day. Driver A is the FTD driver. Driver B is an uber-green motorsports virgin who's never even heard of an apex, doesn't know the first thing about car control, has the reflexes of a turtle, and is dyslexic.

Now, typically, only about 10 seconds separate the greenest novice from FTD. So, that's our focus. That 10 seconds represents 100%.

Our newb driver being in the fastest car of the day means that he probably (we hope) won't be THE slowest car, but where he ends up will represent the percentage that the driver matters.

Here's where we have to guess. My guess is that the newb driver will be at least 8 seconds back. I'm not saying EVERY newb driver would be 8 seconds back, but the ones who bring NO skills to the table would be. If they're only 5 seconds back... that means they brought some skills or natural talent with them.

So, maybe 90% is a slight exaggeration, maybe it's only 80%. The question is, where do we all fit within that 80%?

Of course, that's just one way to look at things. You could take the driver out of the equation and JUST look at the car. The window is narrower than 10 seconds, though. The best driver in even the crappiest car is not going to be the slowest driver at an event. He'll likely be 6-8 seconds back. So, you've only got 8 seconds, or 80% to account for what makes that FTD car "fast". Tires are easy... they're probably worth 2-3 seconds over the crappiest tires, so there's 30%. The rest is really going to be course dependent. Power, suspension, setup, etc.

[Charles]

So, maybe 90% is a slight exaggeration, maybe it's only 80%. The question is, where do we all fit within that 80%?

I'd agree with 80%, and I think the most difficult piece to find in the whole equation is the last 10-20% of that 80%

[Loren]

So, maybe 90% is a slight exaggeration, maybe it's only 80%. The question is, where do we all fit within that 80%?

I'd agree with 80%, and I think the most difficult piece to find in the whole equation is the last 10-20% of that 80%

Absolutely! On a scale of 1-10, I consider myself an 8.5.

[impalanut]

What you typically see is that the more experienced and better drivers usually have the cars that are set up the best. A few years ago the Ft Myers group had a pinto and a mustang that were used as spec cars. This allowed newbies to drive who didn't want to use their own cars or for people who wanted to drive against another driver and evaluate the driver only, understanding that even in the same car there are always some variables. You saw a wide variety of times in the spec cars. I consider myself to be a reasonably good driver, but my co driver is usually 2-3 seconds ahead of me on a long 60 sec course, and this is with very little difference since we check the car to try to keep it as consistant as possible. I suspect a newbie in my car would be at least 5 seconds behind on a similar course. Remember that while better equipment will make you go faster, the better drivers will get more out of that equipment than the lesser driver.