December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Discuss past FAST events. How did it go?
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby nc4me » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:40 pm

rojna wrote:Had a awesome time in the wet, my best run :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs3EojCKgE8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It would be nice to run this course again sometime in the DRY :grin:

2nd again :dunno:
You did a pretty good job. I spotted two things with that run though. First was the early turn in going around the back of the chicago box on the way out, that cost you a good few tenths. The second one was the same thing Chris did in his angry bird video. You should have stayed to the right of the first slalom cone on the way back, just like you did with the second slalom. By staying right it turns it into a one cone slalom (if there is such a thing :headscratch: ). Otherwise, that was a good run! :notworthy:
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby nc4me » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:43 pm

Had a fun time. As always I wasn't able to piece together what I felt was an ideal run. I still can't believe I hit the cone at the first gat on my last run :mad: .Oh well, there is always next month. So painfully far away :tears: .
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby puncturina » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:21 pm

Thanks to everyone for another well run event.
Thanks to Doug A. for a lunch with some vegetable options :salute:
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby puncturina » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:33 pm

It ended up being a VERY fun course to drive, but Dave and I have already discussed some things that we'd want to change about it for improved safety. So, while we're all for using this basic idea, it's not 100% automatically safety approved. (but if an event chair were to send it to us as their first draft, we wouldn't change much!)

FWIW, I'm drawing up a design that is based on this one while it's fresh in my mind. (yes, I liked it, too!) My version will be stretched in a couple places so as to use the full length of the available space, take care of any safety concerns, try to eliminate some "clutter" and make it a little easier to navigate. Don't know when I'll use it, but I'll keep it in the cue.
I'm sure you guys have some ideas about some safety issues already.
While I was on station 4, I repeatedly saw workers from station 2 re-setting cones while cars were heading directly towards them in the first turn after the outgoing slalom. Maybe from my perspective it looked more dangerous than it was, and maybe it would be ok if it were dry, but just thought I would mention it.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Loren » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:45 pm

puncturina wrote:While I was on station 4, I repeatedly saw workers from station 2 re-setting cones while cars were heading directly towards them in the first turn after the outgoing slalom. Maybe from my perspective it looked more dangerous than it was, and maybe it would be ok if it were dry, but just thought I would mention it.
There's not much we can do about that kind of problem other than discuss it here and talk about it at driver's meetings (which we already do). We're careful to put an experienced person on each station, that person should be curtailing the daredevil notions of their fellow workers as required.

Maybe it was just perspective? Count seconds from the time the worker is headed to safety to the time the car gets there. Bear in mind that there is typically only a 25-30 seconds between cars. So, if it takes 15 seconds to get there and 10 seconds to properly set the cone(s), that only leaves 10-15 seconds. The worker needs to be out of the way early enough to not be a concern/distraction to the driver. An attentive driver might actually stop if they feel sufficiently distracted by getting too close to a worker in their path, I've done it before.

The cone I think you're talking about was 100-feet from the edge of the course, so unlike something like the typical slalom cone, the worker did have to run an additional 50-feet just to get to it. Could have just been a difficult station to work.

We just need Liz to train all of our course workers. 8-)
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby aparke » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:51 pm

Great event, guys! It was a really fun course - challenging, but had a nice flow if done properly (not that I could muster up that kind of run :? )
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Rawkkrawler » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:43 am

twistedwankel wrote:
snookwheel wrote:
blacksheep-1 wrote:That was a fun course, can we shelve that one for a future (drier) day?
I agree! I would love a shot at that course in the dry! Had a great time today, even with all the rain. Thanks to all that made it happen. First time I've spun out at 20 mph :oops:

Scott
That would sure make it easier on the next Event Chair/Co Chair using the same design:) All ready safety approved too.

Somebody twist Joe & Mike's arms :thumbwink: What's the weather forecast for Jan 21st?
Even while wet, I really enjoyed this course. If no one is apposed, and the safetly issues are sorted out, I'd like to consider this layout next month.

And while the topic of the 2012 budget is up, I recommend an additional dolly for cone setup/teardown. Not sure if there would be room in the trailer but it would be a great time saver when in Brooksville.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Gregbj8 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:09 am

I was probably the guy Eva was referring to. It looked worse than it was but was not totally safe. Returning cars would knock a cone down in a section of the return course near the center of the runway. I would run a third of the way across, stop and wait for the outbound car to pass, reset the cone just in time to run back before that same car passed me on the return leg. If I waited to set the cone after the outbound car passed I would not have been able to return to safety before it came around on the return leg.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Loren » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:11 am

Remember that workers are free to reposition their station, or spread the workers at their station out or ASK FOR MORE HELP* if their station warrants it. As long as you're keeping up, we generally assume that all is well. Worker stations are set out based on our best guess as to where they'll be needed (and be relatively safe). It's up to the corner captains to fine-tune that based on the needs of the course.

*It's very likely that on some courses there may be positions that could get away with just having one worker, and others that would benefit from having 3. Let us know if your station needs more folks or a "satellite worker" to handle a particular area, and we'll find a way to make it happen.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Loren » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:13 am

Rawkkrawler wrote:Even while wet, I really enjoyed this course. If no one is apposed, and the safetly issues are sorted out, I'd like to consider this layout next month.

And while the topic of the 2012 budget is up, I recommend an additional dolly for cone setup/teardown. Not sure if there would be room in the trailer but it would be a great time saver when in Brooksville.
Mike, I'm gonna send you an email. Just finished my revision of this course last night. If you like it, it's yours. It's just different enough to be "different", but the actual driving line is VERY much the same.

And I'm gonna start a new topic for trailer maintenance.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Charles » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:41 am

blacksheep-1 wrote:That was a fun course, can we shelve that one for a future (drier) day?

+1 for this.....

2 of the offsets were pretty tough but if it was easy I guess it wouldn't be autoX.

Thanks to the event chairs and the poor course workers in run group 2-3 that had to reset the 38578349573 cones we were all sliding into. I tried to apologize to Chris on my way by during my 2nd run for driving through a cone wall for the 2nd time in a row :)
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby rab » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:07 pm

Thanks guys!

The course was great! I had a blast!

Thanks Loren for the multiple help sessions. :thumbwink:

Now if I can just stop being a slug. :derp:
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Rosko » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:05 am

Has FAST ever put on a bad event? That speaks volumes on its own. Thank you very much to all the people who make it happen. I'm tempted to name names, but I'm too afraid I'll forget somebody!

Right on, Eric! It's good fun competition. We are 1 and 1. Hopefully, I won't miss any events, and it will be a good fight for the M1 championship.

I officially regret my disappointment at being in the first run group. It hurt us two months ago. It helped us this past Saturday. It's like a box of chocolates.

If anyone designing future courses is listening, there is one element I haven't seen in a while. I'd like a super high speed section that ends into a threshold braking area, like a tight, 90 degree turn maybe.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Loren » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:12 am

Rosko wrote:If anyone designing future courses is listening, there is one element I haven't seen in a while. I'd like a super high speed section that ends into a threshold braking area, like a tight, 90 degree turn maybe.
You haven't seen that for several reasons:
1. "super high speed" doesn't fit the definition of autocross, nor our insurance requirement to keep speeds below 60mph.
2. It's generally considered poor design. Have a read.
3. Just like we try to avoid "dragstrip starts" because it's hard on clutches, we avoid those high speed 50-20 braking zones because they are a recipe for flat-spotted tires. We're about fun... flat spots aren't fun!

But, even on this course, there were several areas that required hard braking, and if you weren't "threshold braking" relatively late (but not too late), you were leaving time out there!
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Loren » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:14 am

rab wrote:Thanks Loren for the multiple help sessions. :thumbwink:
Anytime, Rick! You need to work on getting the "racing line" into your head and quit trying to make everything a discrete straight or turn. Blend it all together and make it flow! It's a zen thing. :thumbwink:
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby garage west » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:51 am

Loren wrote:quit trying to make everything a discrete straight or turn. Blend it all together and make it flow! It's a zen thing. :thumbwink:
I struggle with this.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby shakedown067 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:29 pm

Rosko wrote:Right on, Eric! It's good fun competition. We are 1 and 1. Hopefully, I won't miss any events, and it will be a good fight for the M1 championship.
You'll get to miss at least one, I already know I'll miss the March event as I'll be at the 12hrs of Sebring! I do hope it comes down the even in July though!
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Rosko » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:54 pm

Loren wrote:
Rosko wrote:If anyone designing future courses is listening, there is one element I haven't seen in a while. I'd like a super high speed section that ends into a threshold braking area, like a tight, 90 degree turn maybe.
You haven't seen that for several reasons:
1. "super high speed" doesn't fit the definition of autocross, nor our insurance requirement to keep speeds below 60mph.
2. It's generally considered poor design. Have a read.
3. Just like we try to avoid "dragstrip starts" because it's hard on clutches, we avoid those high speed 50-20 braking zones because they are a recipe for flat-spotted tires. We're about fun... flat spots aren't fun!

But, even on this course, there were several areas that required hard braking, and if you weren't "threshold braking" relatively late (but not too late), you were leaving time out there!
Understood, but when I said super high speed, I meant super high speed for an autocross, which is, yes, around 60mph.

I know that the start of this last course was designed to prevent that unwanted drag strip launch, but from what I heard it was not well liked. I saw the starter fix that first cone countless times. IMHO, it was just a bit too tight. In the interest of full disclosure, I never hit it. I agree with the intent. I like saving my rear tires, but when so many drivers hit the first cone, it just seems like something that might deserve a second look if this is the way starts will be handled in the future. On the flip side, many drivers also hit that cone in the Chicago Box, but that doesn't mean we should change it. I see both sides.

Yeh, there was one fairly hard- braking area approaching the diagonal slalom on the way back.

Okay, I'll take what I get and be happy. Shutting up now.
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby Loren » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:08 pm

Rosko wrote:Understood, but when I said super high speed, I meant super high speed for an autocross, which is, yes, around 60mph.
Keep in mind that you don't have a "super-fast" car, so YOU shouldn't be going 60 mph. Ideally, 60 (maaaybe 65ish) is the top speed we should see for the FASTEST cars on race tires. That means 45-50 for the rest of us. In other words, this last course WAS about as super-fast as we can allow! (I know I hit well over 50 in one of the slowest cars out there... 'nuff said)
I know that the start of this last course was designed to prevent that unwanted drag strip launch, but from what I heard it was not well liked.
I suggested, but did not demand, that cone be omitted. I agree, the only thing that cone caused was unneccessary cone penalties and more work for the starter. Everybody lined up and blasted straight past it. We'll catch more stuff like that with our new course review process. (and be a little more adamant about it)
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Re: December 2011 - Post-Event thread

Postby impalanut » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:21 pm

The SCCA/insurance guideline for speeds of 60 ish is for cars in the stock/street prepared/street tire classes. It is understood that prepared and mod cars will go faster. I would estimate that in the wet I was mid 60s at the end of each of the slaloms. I would imagine that in the dry I would be mid 70's. I believe that is an acceptable range for AM/BM/EM cars (by SCCA classing) This has been discussed many times in various SCCA venues. I know we do our own classing, but the style and safety of the events are similar. Al long as we are following the right safety guidelines there shouldn't be a problem. We will have to start being more careful about some of the areas of concrete that are breaking up. We may want to find out if we would be allowed to do some patching of the worst areas. The occasional application of quickcrete to prevent a major hole in the concrete would not be a bad idea.

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