What's a race car?

[Loren]

Pax Numbers
Howard's car BM 0.960 x 60 sec course = 57.6
Scott's car EM 0.928 x 60 sec course = 55.68
Charles's car SM (Race car) 0.866 x 60 sec course = 51.96
Rob's new Mustang CP (Race car) 0.860 x 60 sec course = 51.6
SSP whatever (Mod class 1 legal) 0.865 x 60 sec course = 51.9
ASP Vette (Mod class 1 legal) 0.863 x 60 sec course = 51.78
BSP S2000 (Mod class 1 legal) 0.859 x 60 sec course = 51.54
CSP Miata (Mod class 2 legal) 0.857 x 60 sec course = 51.42

Just got around to reading this part and your calculations are backwards. What you need to be doing is comparing each car to the theoretical A-Mod car.

Let's say the A-Mod car can do the course in 40 seconds.

So, for Howard, the reverse calculate his time you would DIVIDE 40 seconds by his index of .960 to get his time of 41.667. (now, if you take Howard's time and apply the PAX as you were trying to do, you get the A-Mod time of 40 seconds)

So, not that it helps this discussion, but here's what you were trying to say:
Theoretical AM car = 40 seconds
Howard's car BM 40/0.960 = 41.667
Scott's car EM 40/0.928 = 43.103
Charles's car SM (Race car) 40/0.866 = 46.189
Rob's new Mustang CP (Race car) 40/0.860 = 46.512
SSP whatever (Mod class 1 legal) 40/0.865 = 46.243
ASP Vette (Mod class 1 legal) 40/0.863 = 46.350
BSP S2000 (Mod class 1 legal) 40/0.859 = 46.566
CSP Miata (Mod class 2 legal) 40/0.857 = 46.674

Okay, so we get the point. Charles' car is not prepared to a level that it can compete against the likes of BM or EM. But... then there are classes like EP, FP and GP, which all fit our definition of "race car" with indexes of .85 to .87. They can't compete either. Hell, in theory, Scott can't even compete. And if somebody shows up with a well-driven A-Mod car, HOWARD can't compete. That's simply a side-effect of our classing structure that only has one class for that entire category of cars. How many one-car classes does a club our size need?

BTW, the part you're overlooking with your SCCA/SP-to-FAST/Mod comparison is that unlike SP, our Mod is on STREET TIRES. So, add a second or two to each of those times for each of the SP/Mod classes.

I think the solution to this problem (which I'm not willing to concede is a "problem" unless it affects more than one or two cars) is to do one of two things:
Either split the "race car" class in two (opening a whole new "how do we split it" can of worms), or add a 4th "Mod" class that would be "super-unlimited absolutely anything on street tires". I don't believe the proper solution is to slacken the rules in our existing Mod classes.

Just an observation: It's truly amazing how impossible it is to avoid "rule creep".

[Loren]

All the fresh early-Miata guys (90-97) know that it's going to be nearly impossible for them to compete in the M2 class without adding a turbo

What? You are saying a CSP miata is not competitive in M2? I would say it's an overdog in that class. Maybe if someone in an NA put a fraction of the money and thought into their car as Chris Meier it would be a different story.

Perhaps. Nobody's done it yet, though. Bear in mind that Chris can run (and is running) 245-width tires. The current generation "overdog" street tires. When you try to compare to CSP... you can't. The top CSP Miatas are running Hoosiers on 10" wide 13" wheels. What STREET TIRE are you going to run on that wheel? (hint: they run 13's to save weight AND to run a shorter tire for better gear ratio... both of those benefits will be lost) About the best you can do without killing the car with the weight of a 17x8" wheel is to run 15x8's with 225's. Which Steve Frank is doing, and not coming close. Yeah, I know there's more prep that can be done. I also know that Chris' car isn't all THAT prepared, and Chris carries a bit of a personal weight penalty, so his car isn't as fast as it could be, either.

So, Yeah... I have my doubts about an early Miata being competitive in our M2 class. And I'm certain that a 1.6 doesn't have a chance. (maybe a 1.8... especially if it's a later 1.8)

I guess I am done here. We'll be modifying the 240 in the coming months. I will let the panel of judges know so they can assemble and let us know when our car becomes a race car so I don't hurt anyone's feelings in the unlimited mods class by having too many mods.

Keep your interior, don't turn it into a race car, not a problem. I'm sure you could already win M1 with just a good set of street tires, why press the issue. "Panel of judges" is not a rule, just an idea proposed by Chuck. If it looks like a duck, Steve and I will decide whether or not to call it a duck. (and convene a committee as we see fit)

[Jeremy]

You are this close into forcing me to build a 1.6L Miata for M2.

[Loren]

Do it, man!

Mine will be there eventually.

[Jeremy]

Aren't people welcome to make up their own classes? I just need to think up a catchy name.

[blacksheep-1]

Intergalactic super street modified (with and without stickers) class

ISSMS
and
ISSM

[Loren]

Intergalactic super street modified (with and without stickers) class

ISSMS
and
ISSM

"I" classes.

[snookwheel]

"I" classes.

Ok, that's punny

[Jeremy]

How about "Frankly Unlimited"?

[blacksheep-1]

We could have FU
then with a few more mods we could have FU2

I like it

There's where you're working at a gender disadvantage, Eva, because every red-blooded male driver over the age of 14 1/2 knows they're Juan Manuel Fangio, Stirling Moss, Mario Andretti, and Ayrton Senna rolled up into one...it can't possibly be anything but the car!

Speed, I am SPEED
- Lightning McQueen

[nc4me]

I look at all classes when I drive anyway. Sometimes I think about which cars I may have beaten if they weren't on race tires. I look at cars I think my car compares to in all classes. If I win or lose I then go on to ask was it poor driving by me or poor driving by them. Don't get me wrong, having a competitive class to run in is fun, but lets be honest, most classes are dominated by 2 or maybe 3 people anyway. I try to beat Drew and Chuck. Those are the 2 guys I try and beat, which reminds me how poorly I drive. My car should be able to beat theirs by a decent margin every event, but those guys can drive their asses off. It's all fun to me. I would like the faster guys out of all the M classes, if they agree to it, to make one class for us. It would let the other guys compete and win and it would provide us with good competition as well. I wouldn't mind running against Drew, Chuck, Loren in John's NC, Mark Jones and Kyle Sokol(when they show up), Jeremy and Charles in the 240 on street tires, and Robs new Mustang on street tires. I think it would be a great class and a lot of fun. If no one wants to do that then I think we should leave things the way they are.

[yamaha731]

I look at all classes when I drive anyway. Sometimes I think about which cars I may have beaten if they weren't on race tires. I look at cars I think my car compares to in all classes. If I win or lose I then go on to ask was it poor driving by me or poor driving by them. Don't get me wrong, having a competitive class to run in is fun, but lets be honest, most classes are dominated by 2 or maybe 3 people anyway. I try to beat Drew and Chuck. Those are the 2 guys I try and beat, which reminds me how poorly I drive. My car should be able to beat theirs by a decent margin every event, but those guys can drive their asses off. It's all fun to me. I would like the faster guys out of all the M classes, if they agree to it, to make one class for us. It would let the other guys compete and win and it would provide us with good competition as well. I wouldn't mind running against Drew, Chuck, Loren in John's NC, Mark Jones and Kyle Sokol(when they show up), Jeremy and Charles in the 240 on street tires, and Robs new Mustang on street tires. I think it would be a great class and a lot of fun. If no one wants to do that then I think we should leave things the way they are.

You will always be number 3 to me lol

[Jeremy]

How about someone invent a time machine? We can all go back to 1992 so that a 1.6L Miata will be competitive in the Mod classes. As a bonus, Loren's Hawaiian shirts will be back in style also.

[Loren]

The same could be said of a1992 240sx. And hawaiian shirts haven't been in style since the 40's!

[Jeremy]

I think the 240sx starts in M3, it's fine there.

[Jeremy]

And a 1.8 Miata swap isn't a bump, I don't think. So 1.6L miata isn't a dead car. Let's say Chris's car is worth 20-25K. You don't think you can build an NA without forced induction for 10-12K that would be quicker than his car?

[twistedwankel]

To me a "Race Car" is not street legal...period. No part of it is street legal including the tires. Well okay they wear a seat belt and usually have one tail light so they don't get hit in the ass on the track. It does not have to have a license plate on it but it should be eligible for one. A "Race Car" is not simply a "car one races". It is a "purpose built" vehicle.

I don't think Scott and Mary's car should necessarily be in EM as it's totally street legal. I got put in EM once with a totally stock 3100# car because I had a boost controller on it. Silly. Didn't care and still don't. Did I win? Yes, against a supercharged Mustang on Street tires while I had R tires.

What is cool about "classes" is that one can move "UP" into any "supposedly" faster class and mess with people's minds but you can never move "down".

Next year assuming all things stay the same and I still have the Rx8, can shift gears and can perform some work assignment I will probably do a Chuck Ray and move to S1 from S2:) Why? Because the last time at Brooksville I would have won their "faster" class. Why? Probably because they weren't watching anyone outside their class (tunnel vision). It's okay = Loren and Greg both beat my S3 car in SPC = soundly too.

Mary and Scott's car is not a "race car". It is a modified Lotus 7 on "full race slicks". But I'm pretty sure it's "stock" otherwise and I want one

I was in on the SM movement from the very beginning and the biggest initial factor was "minimum weight" vs "CC's" while only being able to remove the back seat (like kid's did for tuner stereos). Since the car has to remain fully "streetable", licensable, it is not a "race car". It might be faster than a speeding bullet boosted 30psi but it's still not a "race car" unless it is running "full race slicks" and doesn't have a heater? Is it modified? Yes. Is it a race car? Not in my mind.

Am I taking sides with Jeremy aka the trouble maker. Yes.

Doug

[blacksheep-1]

So at this point, should I go with the lowbuck 302 or try and build a normally aspirated 2300. Because with all the turbo crap the 2300 is almost as heavy as the 302.....
Would this be a good time to discuss N2O?

[twistedwankel]

I think it looks really cool without doors. Like an Ariel Atom.

[Loren]

Doug, here's a query for you...

If a "race car" is not street legal... period... all the way down to the tires. What if we take off the race tires and put street tires on it? Should it then be eligible for our M1 class? That's an extreme case of what we're talking about here. If we don't have a LINE (even a somewhat fuzzy line) drawn somewhere to separate "modified" from "not-what-most-people-would-consider-to-be-a-street-car", what's to keep that from happening?

WHERE do you propose we put the line that defines a "streetable" car for our "Modified street tire" classes? People have already ruled out the requirement for a tag or for actually driving the car to the event... I mean, racing a car that you actually drive on the street? You can't be serious! And if they don't drive it on the street, no need to put insurance or a tag on it. And if they did drive it to the track, it might break... so it needs to be trailered.

Am I poking a little fun here? Sure. But, where do we draw the line? We decided long ago. "Interior" is where we presently draw the line. And if people push the limits too far, we'll look at other ways to define things. But, all of our "street tire" classes, including "modified street tire" classes, were intended for daily driven street cars. If you're trailering the car, there's no reason you shouldn't be running race tires!

I'll say it again, you can do things to a trailered car that most people wouldn't do to a daily driver. You can go to greater extremes with the alignment, run stiffer suspension, tweak the engine to where it wouldn't be reliable for daily driving, but will hold up well enough for a year or two of running 60-seconds at a time. You can make the car a completely stripped and lightened rattle-trap that nobody would willingly drive to work every day. And what you guys are telling me is that you want to be able to take that trailered "race car" (that's what it's become at this point, whether you choose to call it that or not), put street tires on it, and compete against the guys who actually have to drive their car to work on Monday? And you think that would be fair?

Nope. Not buyin' it.