No novice school, etc...

[Jeremy]

Is there something wrong with being "lazy" and saving ourselves some work? If it weren't for a little bit of well-engineered "laziness"...

That's cool how when I say that same thing I am an asshole and when you say it, you are a genius.

[twistedwankel]

For some time now..."NOT RACERS" watch for it soon on http://www.com

Doug, it must be lonely there in Dougtropolis...or they have REALLY good bars there.

I'll blame it all on Rex's leaking gas tank fumes. Not to worry it's fixed now.

[Jamie]

I'll let Jamie chime in on the run groups, I'm sure it does add a little work there, but it's not like changes don't occur from the no-shows anyways.

Actually, it was a significant PIA some days. Planning in advance for no-shows is easier than figuring out how to balance groups with a bunch of unclassed walk-ons. The hardest part, though, was the cut-off. We'd take enough to replace the no-shows, plus "a few", which was normally everyone we could possibly squeeze in...12-20 folks, depending. Then two or three no-shows would come screaming in, expecting that at 9:05, or 9:10, or even 9:15, we'd take them (and a few got nasty if told no...I was event chair for a couple. No pain, me, but it would have killed an easy-going, pleasant guy like Steve ). Now we'd have to redesign the groups to pack them in. It literally got to where I'd draft 3-group and 4-group solutions for SPC in advance, just in case we got a bigger crowd...but balancing classes with the walk-ons was still work, because usually at least half were regulars who wanted their points. We were also seeing more "regular walk-ons"...that is, folks who for one reason or another, didn't want to pre-register, so would just regularly show up. That's not making it more effective for newbies or occasional autocrossers...that was just making extra work. So I wholeheartedly supported mandatory pre-registration. We're not hard to find.

[Loren]

So, there ya go. Both sides of the coin.

[Jeremy]

We've got THE strongest autocross program in the area (note that I didn't say anything egotistical like "the best"... just the facts, it IS the strongest)

Well, it's not like you have a lot of competition. FAST is the only regularly autocrossing group in Tampa now.
FCRC isn't an autocross. BMW club has a flaky schedule, PCA has a crap site. So congrats on being the best of the rest.

I think FAST is doing well despite your actions, not because of them.
Stuff like publicly belittling people because they messed up on their registrations, or because they have a question about the rules is not my idea of how to build a strong club.
I guess whatever it takes to get you back to the small events that you desire.

[Loren]

Perspective is a funny thing.

The way I see it, we DO have competition. And over the past 10 years, we've had MORE competition.

FCRC, BMW, PCA and SCCA all run pretty much the same monthly schedule that we do. For some reason, 70 people choose to run with our club month after month. They could just as well choose to run with one of the other clubs.

I'll say it again: "We must be doing something right."

[Jeremy]

SCCA used to be THE stongest club in the area.
They must have been doing something right...

and then stopped doing it.

[twistedwankel]

SCCA used to be THE stongest club in the area.
They must have been doing something right...

and then stopped doing it.

The Local SCCA was backed by the National Topeka Organization that probably carried them thru the lean times:

The SCCA "Autocross Chair", et al, signed on for the whole year. They ran both Sat and Sun to get enough racers to pay the bills since the Airport and Insurance was covered for the same price doing two days. You had to run R tires to be competitive in Street Classes which meant changing tires twice a day. The "Yearly points" were the first 4 runs on Sunday only. You had to pay for each day. They got to the point they couldn't even afford bottled water and filled a contractor's jug out of the tap. They stopped handing out trophies and gave punch card credits (10 credits = one free event). Most of the local "profit" money from membership, insurance fees and events goes back to Topeka, Kansas. When I dropped my membership they wanted $109/yr and offered no central west coast events. You had to run at least 6 events just to get the value of your membership back = breakeven. Unless one was going to run divisional and national events this was a total waste of racing resources and time. The SCCA events at Deland weren't doing a whole lot better even when they mandated running of two events on the opposite coast for points to count. Now that they run at Orlando and Sebring they are doing much better with huge turnouts of over 100 on occasion (due to population, carts and decent pavement). You only get 3 runs when that many show up. Martin Club bumbles along in Tavares (30 mi from Orlando) at a police lot with 45-60 racers but when they have their Orlando event they get over 100 racers. You're lucky to get 3-4 runs, 2 at a time and work twice. They also allow carts.

But then you all ready knew all that. So it must be the "Lunch" or the "carts"

A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

[Jamie]

The Local SCCA was backed by the National Topeka Organization that probably carried them thru the lean times:

As in subsidies? Nope. What regional autocross programs get from the national headquarters is access to the insurance policy (don't know how it compares, but you hope that a large sanctioning body can cut some deals), a common ruleset and event operations guidance (benefits not so noticable here, but when I was running in Tennessee across three regions and two indepedent clubs using SCCA rules, it was nice), marketing (of debatable value), and connectivity to national competition (not alot of interest here, but in other places).

The SCCA "Autocross Chair", et al, signed on for the whole year.

Local way of dealing with it...changable at a whim.

They ran both Sat and Sun to get enough racers to pay the bills since the Airport and Insurance was covered for the same price doing two days. The "Yearly points" were the first 4 runs on Sunday only. You had to pay for each day.

1) Interesting...I didn't realize the airport charged by the weekend, not the day.
2) So?
3) We charge people for each day of a two-day event.

You had to run R tires to be competitive in Street Stock Classes which meant changing tires twice a day.

Someone start up a turbine nearby? I hear a whine.... Granted, the Solo Events Board's unwillingness to control the evolution of DOT tires often looks like it hasn't done the SCCA any favors, but part of that is because a significant amount of hte membership likes R-compound tires. And individual regions have always been able to adjust to meet the wishes of their members...if they speak up.

They got to the point they couldn't even afford bottled water and filled a contractor's jug out of the tap. They stopped handing out trophies and gave punch card credits (10 credits = one free event).

Actually, you had a choice between a trophy or a punch card. Many people liked the punch cards...who doesn't like a free event?

Most of the local "profit" money from membership, insurance fees and events goes back to Topeka, Kansas.

Should have read your renewal form. Insurance, of course, went back to National (that's an operating fee, not profit). Membership is split between the region and National, and the amounts are on the renewal form. I don't recall that "most" goes back to National. Event fees, after insurance and a small sanctioning fee -- something like $5/car, stay with the region. Whether they stay with the autocross program depends on how the program's structured in the region.

When I dropped my membership they wanted $109/yr and offered no central west coast events. You had to run at least 6 events just to get the value of your membership back = breakeven. Unless one was going to run divisional and national events this was a total waste of racing resources and time.

Reasonable...if you're not getting value for your money, don't spend the money.

The autocross population around Tampa is a bit cliquish...not in a mean way, but many people who run local BMWCCA, PCA, FAST, and Martin events run nothing else. The same was true of Central Florida Region when I first arrived, but many of those folks moved on to other things. They're not running somewhere else -- they're just not running. So the operation folded up, and the small remainder migrated to the other clubs. The marque clubs keep healthy because their national organizations point new Porsche and BMW owners their way, and autocross is just a small portion of their existence. I think SCCA National crippled alot of small programs when they imposed the $15 surcharge for temporary memberships, supposedly to close up an insurance loophole, but most of us believe it was to convince people to join up. You don't attract new members by beating them. I think a large part of our success has resulted from regularly pulling in new folks. We have migration out just like everyone else...I can probably pull up 10-20 names from five years ago who we haven't seen lately. Hasn't mattered...new folks replaced them. So it's not the lunch...certainly not karts...it's a regular intake of new faces.

[islandmon]

A civil, thoughtful, and lively discussion is good for an organization!

My original question and comment was about eliminating the novice school. IMO a healthy organization stays healthy by recruiting and growing new members when it's "full" - not waitng until the inevitable decline begins (all organziations follow a bell curve life cycle). It was probably also because I have been actively recruiting several people I know to be good stewards of performance cars, to engage in the sport. While I think this decision may be short-sighted, I respect what Loren and Steve and many other fine people have built and support their decision.

I would like to see an event this year that is more of a school than a points event. Maybe rather than a "novice" school, we conduct an "intermediate" school for those members who consistently show up but don't really improve their skill level. They do well enough or are "regular" enough they don't draw the attention of the "instructors" but could use more time focused on learing to read the course, the correct line, smoother driver input, car set-up basics (like tire pressure), driving position - all those things drivers consistently winning take for granted.

This type of event should be more expensive to attend ($ 75) and limited to 20 or so current "members" so that each participant had the opportunity to make 15 - 20 runs in a day (over one or more different course configurations). The top drivers in the club could put together a course "curriculum" and divide up into teams to work with smaller groups both in the participants car and the instructor's car, similar to what we do at novice school but focused on those "regulars" who want to be more competitive.

2nd item - walk-ups at St. Pete: Just my 2 cents but after helping in registration whenw e did take walk-ups, having to chase down walk-ups to tech their cars, then chairing an event and seeing in real-time the challenge of having all the domino's line up on time, I recommend to maintain our current policy. It's not like our events are hard to find or hard to plan ahead for.

Anyways - you all are great and I wish you the merriest Christmas, the happiest Hannukah, and all that stuff. I am glad to know each and all of you and look forward to kicking Bob's butt in January!

[islandmon]

Oops - I guess I missed Loren's Test and Tune event description

[Loren]

1) Interesting...I didn't realize the airport charged by the weekend, not the day.

The airport charges by the day. They do give a discount for the second day, however. The benefit of a 2-day event lies more in the insurance. Both K&K (our insurance) and SCCA's insurance cover an entire weekend for a single fee whether it's a single day or up to 3 days. The insurance is for the duration of "the event".

So it's not the lunch...certainly not karts...it's a regular intake of new faces.

I have my theories as to what has made this club successful and why we see a constant influx of new faces.

First is the website, forum and good communication. We publish our schedule as early as possible and do our best to get the word out as we need to. When we needed to (we haven't in a LONG time), we pushed our events heavily on Tampa Racing and other local forums to get people to come out. These days, the program is sustaining itself without that. People find us. Largely because we have a good web presence.

Second is simply quality and consistency. We put on good events with good courses, we include lunch and ample beverages, our format is consistent and generally doesn't leave people wondering what's going to happen next. (compare to some of the marque clubs where you might sometimes end up working course for 2 hours due to someone's poor planning) We also have a very good safety record and take it very seriously... but I'm not sure the average newb autocrosser is very aware of that.

Third is value. For those who can only afford to do one event per month and are choosing between one of the 5 local clubs, ours is among the cheapest AND consistently includes lunch. If you value lunch at $10, it's like getting a (usually) 6-run autocross for $20. And there are no strings. You don't have to join SCCA or some other club to get "discounted" entry.

I could go on, but those are the major points.

Oh, and I can't deny that the collapse of CFR-West did bring us a few entries. But, most of them are Brooksville-only.

All that being said: This might seem counterintuitive, but I *want* to see the SCCA program succeed. There is more than enough room in this "market" for another solid autocross club, and SCCA has a lot to offer that we can't as far as higher-level competition and progression into road racing and such. More power to them, I say!

So... they're holding an event at Brooksville on March 31. That's conveniently right between our March and April events. If you have any interest at all in seeing the SCCA's CFR-West autocross program come back (or even if you just want something to do that weekend), BE THERE! The level of interest in that single event will determine whether they schedule more events in our area in the near future.

And if you ever wanted to get your foot in the door of a new autocross program so that you can mold and shape it into what YOU think it should be, this would be the perfect opportunity. I know that they ARE seeking volunteers to help.

[Loren]

Oops - I guess I missed Loren's Test and Tune event description

Indeed, you did.

I think we're on the same page. The T&T is going to need a chairman and co-chairman. I was planning on wrangling Howard into chairing it, but I bet he could use some qualified help.

[twistedwankel]

Cool how you guys know how to line by line comment.

I have no idea how to do that.

I do know how to make a ball ripping course.

I know the meaning of a great time.

Otherwise I suck.

Mayor of Dougopolous

[BrandLoyal]

http://youtu.be/5dI6mPDCqEo

[jmdoc66]

I stick around to see how many people Jeremy can insult or piss off in every thread he posts.


"Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?"
Kelly's Heroes

Club membership and participation is voluntary.

[Loren]

Cool how you guys know how to line by line comment.

I have no idea how to do that.

Here ya go, Doug.

Now you know.

[Jeremy]

I stick around to see how many people Jeremy can insult or piss off in every thread he posts.

Other people have said the same thing. The thing is, that's not my intent.

FAST members have thin skin?

Don't know. I would love people giving honest criticism.
Like Doug for example, he now has plenty of complaints about the SCCA, but when we were actually running, when it could have made a difference, none of that was mentioned.

In the specific example of the 4 runs in the morning for the competition portion, I remember it being asked at almost every event, "Is everyone OK with this format?" and no one said anything negative about it.

Club membership and participation is voluntary.

That's a great attitude. I assume this web forum participation is also voluntary? I think I am going to refrain from posting for a while. So we can go back to every post talking about how awesome we all are. *Group hug*

[jmdoc66]

No I said the membership and participation is voluntary to remind you that no one is forcing you to comment on the club or come to the events.

Why don't you step up and chair an event. It will give you the opportunity to 'fix' all the issue you bring up in the forums.

and to answer your question;

That's cool how when I say that same thing I am an asshole and when you say it, you are a genius.

Maybe it's because you come across as an abrasive asshole. How about a few examples?

No valuable members have ever come from a novice school.

I think FAST is doing well despite your actions, not because of them.


Like Doug for example, he now has plenty of complaints about the SCCA, but when we were actually running, when it could have made a difference, none of that was mentioned.

So we can go back to every post talking about how awesome we all are. *Group hug*

What's my point?? You can make suggestions or give constructive criticism without being a flaming asshole. You should try it sometime.

Mike

[Loren]

Okay, let's not let this escalate. Personal attacks are not necessary.

Like Jim said, "Civil, thoughtful, lively discussion."

Suggestions are welcome. Like any organization, we can't follow every suggestion that is made.