Rerun for Red Flag after Off Course?

[Loren]

Problem at this moment is that there's no way to change a poll once it has been started, and a bunch of people have already voted.

Let's let it ride out with the current options. If enough people think it's an issue that we even need to worry about, then we can worry about how to deal with it.

[Native]

... If we're going to play by the SCCA rulebook, though, we ought to take all of the related elements, instead of cherry-picking.

I believe the rule was quoted just for reference for sake of discussion, just as you quoted other rule. We aren't bound by that rule, or any SCCA rule, nor is there cherry-picking going on. We're discussing to determine what, if any, rule will be adopted, or not.

[Native]

Problem at this moment is that there's no way to change a poll once it has been started, and a bunch of people have already voted.

Let's let it ride out with the current options. If enough people think it's an issue that we even need to worry about, then we can worry about how to deal with it.

Absolutely.

[dbeng]

It seems like something that would happen to anyone so rarely - a self induced off course excursion and someone else causing a red flag within the same run (two unconnected issues)- that it's not a big enough issue to cause any significant difference to a points championship. I would think the chances of it happening to any one competitor more then once a season are slim to none. If a run already includes an off-course DNF then there shouldn't be any reason for a re-run if the same run is red flagged later. I'd put it down to bad luck & get back on it with the next run. (IMO of course). Having said that, whatever is decided needs to be the same for everyone so whichever way we go I think it should be clarified in the rules.
Dan

[Jeremy]

I voted yes.

Doesn't make sense that someone with a zillion cone hits gets a lucky dog.
and someone off course doesn't. Both competitors essentially have a "done" run.
Also this could cause people to choose to take out cone walls as opposed to just going off course and around them when you get way off line.

I think the SCCA does this to save time by eliminating reruns whenever possible.
I don't think FAST is really that pressed for time where this needs to be an issue.
And if you are I am sure there are plenty of other ways to squeeze out some time from event lengths. (Keeping spare cones at worker stations, so we don't have to stop the event to rebuild the course that someone fucked up in the first afternoon session and failed to correct properly)

Also think about the type of person who would be going off course. Probably someone who is not in the hunt for a win and could probably benefit from their deserved look at the course full speed.

[BigBlue]

Proposal: Count the DNF, but also give a rerun that's not counted. Put the very next run in the computer as an instructor run or something. This way the guy gets the DNF, which he/she earned and gets the full run deserved.

This is a good idea.

I also vote for Nate's idea. And for as often as a red flag after a dnf occurs, I disagree that it would be too hard to track. It's not like it happens even twice in a run group. If we can manage to track regular reruns, and instructor runs, we can manage to track this. I'd be curious to hear from the timing regulars what they think.

As a 'timing regular', I guess I'll throw my two cents out there.

First, I don't think Nate's idea would be all that hard implement. We could use the OFF penalty code, cycle the driver as soon as possible, and then code it in a way similar to how we use INS as a number for instructor runs. The time would be visible to the driver only briefly on the monitor, and once the event is over it would not be a part of any results. It is doable.

Second, I can count on one hand the number of times this has happened. It is a rare occurrence to say the least. That being said, we have never as long as I've been doing timing, granted a rerun to a DNF if the 'Red Flag' condition occurred after the DNF. And that has never been an issue. I believed that it was always understood that a DNF meant the run was over and anything that happened post DNF didn't matter to that run.

Third, we are not the SCCA. I think the 'rule book' that we use at FAST is thick enough. Because we are a FUN group, I don't think we need to be worrying about every possible issue that may come up. Common sense and/or the decision of an organizer should be enough to cover any rare question not 'in the rules' that arises.

Fourth, and finally, I'd like to hear the opinion of the driver of the run in question. Maybe I missed it, but I personally never heard them state an opinion on the matter either way.

[Jamie]

Fourth, and finally, I'd like to hear the opinion of the driver of the run in question. Maybe I missed it, but I personally never heard them state an opinion on the matter either way.

Doubtful you will...the driver was a first-timer who was having trouble figuring out which way was up. I brought this to Loren and Steve because I think it's at odds with sportsmanlike conduct and the information we pass out at the drivers meeting. You know my opinion.

[twistedwankel]

Good write up Ron.

"51.090+DNF" How did I know that?

I FAST timing. NO Body else gives me a time when I OC or DNF or simply Fart. Few clubs attempt to tell me where I went OC. Even the grid guys or starter will give a heads up the next time you pull up to the line if he hears the chatter.

Many people in the last few years have said: "Mayor you really need help." Maria agrees. It's not easy for her living in Dougopolous.

The Mayor

[ExecutiveHydra]

I'll tell ya, I was running timing when this occurred and not for nothin, I feel I can take some responsibility for this poll, as I did mark the driver as a DNF. The driver however went DNF much prior to the course getting red flagged. At the time, and not having time to think about it, naturally I sided with the judgement that "A DNF is a DNF, the run would not have counted anyways, so no re-run" Going back and thinking about it? I have no idea. Should he have been allowed another run, because in the end this is about FUN? I'm not sure, because the competitive side of me says no, but the logical side says yes.

I guess it's good we're doing this poll. Don't throw too many rotten tomatoes my way.

[Loren]

Paul, there's nothing that you or anyone else needs to "take responsibility" for here. State your opinion if you want to. Vote if you want to.

You marked a DNF run as a DNF, as you should. As Ron noted, we generally don't go back and change that. You didn't do anything wrong. No guilt, no tomatoes.

[twistedwankel]

I'll tell ya, I was running timing when this occurred and not for nothin, I feel I can take some responsibility for this poll, as I did mark the driver as a DNF. .

Paul. In the future a "DNF" = "Did Not Fart".

"OC" = still means "Off Course".

[Solar]

Just give them a re-run.

[twistedwankel]

Just give them a re-run.

And paint a big red Scarlet Letter on their car.

[jbrannon7]

Once you are red flagged you are nearly always DNF for off course, because you normally drive slowly straight to the finish.

[Loren]

Once you are red flagged you are nearly always DNF for off course, because you normally drive slowly straight to the finish.

I don't think you're following, Joe.

The scenario is:
You go off course and get called DNF, but you're still continuing your run (in any manner you choose). Then the other car on course does something that causes the course to be red-flagged. You were called a DNF before the red flag incident.

[NervesOfThrill]

Some convincing arguments. I changed my vote from "no" to "yes".

[puncturina]

IMHO, it seems to me that your run ends when a) you cross the finish, b) you go off course c) your car is disabled so you are unable to finish.
If a red flag happens after any one of those events, you don't get a rerun. You only get a rerun if you are red-flagged and are unable to complete the course at full speed because none of the three conditions have been met.

Whatever is decided, I would like to know what the rule is when a car goes completely off the runway and then comes back on before the next cone and is still technically on course. Does going off the runway constitute an off course? Yes, I know the time is shot anyway, but I don't know if that is off course. That happened at the last event, and we did not mark it as a DNF.

[Solar]

How many times is this an issue ? Maybe twice a season, if that ?

Let's just be nice and give the driver that went off course a break. Just because the other driver on the course made a mistake and caused a red flag, why should the "other" driver that didn't know they had a DNF be stopped and penalized and lose their run ?

If you go off course, and you are still running safely, and you don't get stopped, and the course workers call in your number as a DNF, that's fine. Being the driver that got the DNF, they're not going to know that while they're on the course.

As a driver with the DNF, they should still be able to finish their run. If someone else screws up, and causes a RED FLAG during the DNF drivers run, I say give the DNF driver a "Lucky Dog" and just let them be lucky and run again.

Give them a re-run !

Oh, and being a person that has worked timing, it's not a big deal.

[jesup16]

Having run with many clubs, here's my $.02:

1. You go off course / DNF prior to a red flag: It's still a DNF. Most experienced auto crossers would recognized they went "off" before the red flag anyways.
2. You can hit as many cones as you want while staying on course prior to a red flag: You got the lucky dog award.

There's always opportunities for lucky dog's. Case in point:

I was finishing my 4th run last event. I was headed towards the last shoot and saw a down cone. I stopped for it about 30 feet before the finish. This cone did NOT impact my line or time, but I noticed it and took advantage. Dave Oneil can attest to this. I tend to think of it more as a "wise-move" than "lucky dog".

[Inspecta]

If you DNF you DNF'd it up. You can hit cones and still be on course. In my book a DNF does not warrant a rerun, even in the event of a red flag.