Da Groj

It felt so freaking Drew good to be back in the cones after those couple months! Like some others, this is now my favorite-ever course. I suspect this was Loren's subconscious love poem to the G8s, with plenty of opportunities to make up time in the fast parts. Of course, the technical bits gave it away - a lovely "8" as the defining feature. Surely, the RX shared the love, too.

I have to give it up to my superior grocery racer, Nate, who was so generous with his insights, instruction and cheering on.
Don't exactly remember which was my fastest clean run, but let's go with this one:
https://youtu.be/6y_cugYNPeQ

The highlight of my day was my first real attempt at a powerslide:
https://youtu.be/AuSNyX-FYuU?t=53s
In actuality, just a brief moment. But at the time, it felt like several seconds of awesomeness.

Carracer wrote:Pictures: As with all the pictures I post here, feel free to use them if you like them. I had spotters this time ( thanks guys! ) so I got a few more different angles.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/shei3fagbiuq ... 3PLca?dl=0

Always enjoy seeing your photos, Philip. Thanks!

rrath wrote: The highlight of my day was my first real attempt at a powerslide:
https://youtu.be/AuSNyX-FYuU?t=53s
In actuality, just a brief moment. But at the time, it felt like several seconds of awesomeness.

Great videos, love the sound.
I got a picture of that powerslide:


The course really had some great places for pictures.

I hear ya, Joe. That farmer isn't doing us any favors, that's for sure! Will be nice when he gets something green growing in those fields again.

It truly is very hard to get everything we want/need out of a course at Brooksville right now. Everyone wants lots of runs, which means we need two cars on course to maximize use of time. But, the MAXIMUM amount of space we can ever have between those two cars is 100 feet, and that's only if we put both cars closer than 50 feet to the grass. So, unless we deem it completely unsafe (in which case, we'd have to go to one-car-at-a-time and about half the number of runs that people are used to), the "passing zone" will be a feature of almost every course.

And then... the struggle with THAT part of the course is that ideally we'd have both cars going straight so that there's no risk of them ever spinning into each other. But, doing that creates a speed issue. (we're talking 3-400 foot straights that you're already entering at a minimum of 25-30 mph... which will put fast cars easily into the 80's... and doing it twice on each course...) So, we have to put a slalom on one side, and usually something straighter on the other. It works... but it does put people closer to the grass.

That part of the course aside, due to the condition of the fields, lately we have been trying to keep the rest of the course a bit further from the grass. People seem to always find ways to go off, but from what I saw yesterday, almost all of them were just barely off, not much more than the width of their car. Matt was the notable exception, he went a little further off and right into a deep sand pit. (we had to find a tow strap to pull his car out) But, the slalom was not the only place people went off. In fact, I think most of the offs were NOT in the slalom. I saw people go off on the entry to the turn-around (which we anticipated at setup, and moved that turn in by 10 feet and made the angle of entry less so that the braking zone wasn't pointed right at the grass), in the return-side offsets, and at least one car lost it entering the figure 8 (which is in the MIDDLE of the course) and spun all the way to the grass.

So, yeah. Brooksville is not ideal at the moment. But, unless everyone wants to do courses that are single-car and stay right in the middle of the runway, we can't keep every car out of the grass/dirt. A car can slide 50' or more when somebody loses control at 50-60 mph. (SCCA regs say 50' is the minimum distance to an "object", our insurance says 75') If we viewed the grass as an "obstacle" to avoid, we couldn't do anything more than slalom STRAIGHT up the runway with about 68' of buffer space on each side. That would get old fast.

For now, we're doing what we can, and we're making it a point to clearly state during the driver's meeting in very specific and graphic terms the potential dangers of going off into the dirt. Brooksville being the site that is most available to us, and us being the sort who like to autocross a lot... that seems to be our best option right now.

Loren wrote:

aw614 wrote:Watching the video, I think I see places to improve upon, but really did struggle with the lack of traction in the figure 8 and my back end wanting to come around, like it was sliding through it so I think tire pressure adjustments were probably needed possibly less in the back.

Okay, finally watched. Seems a little too washed out to really get a good read on the slalom. (and I'm tired and grumpy and just didn't feel like watching it again) What I saw in the turn-around and even more in the figure 8 wasn't oversteer anywhere, but pure understeer, and driver induced. I'll try to explain, and maybe others can chime in.

What it looks like you're doing is just IMMEDIATELY asking too much of your front tires. You're turning in QUICK (which is good) and at the same time TOO MUCH (which is bad). The figure-8 is the best example. You immediately dial in about 1/4-1/2 turn too much steering and simply overpower the front tires. They start screaming bloody murder and you just keep holding that excessive angle through the turn. Another good example of a similar driver reaction is on the exit of the turn-around where you found yourself off-line and correcting at the end of the turn. YANK the wheel to full lock... sure, you get a reaction from the car, but for what you needed to accomplish, it was way too much input. (there's a secondary topic here of the line you SHOULD have been on to avoid that situation altogether, but I'm focusing on steering input right now)

It looks like a case of fairly typical "I commanded the car to turn, it didn't turn, so I'm going to command it SOME MORE". The good news is that this IS a very common problem, and it's very easy to overcome if you just make yourself think about it a little bit. Get in tune with what the front tires are doing. It's important with any car, but in a FWD car, it is everything! Turn in a little more progressively and FEEL. As soon as you feel the front tires letting loose, you need to fight the instinct that's saying "turn more", recognize that you CAN'T ask the front tires to do any more than that. If you're just on the very cusp of understeer, you can usually stay right there. If you're actually understeering, you need to either lessen your steering angle or ease off of the throttle. Ask LESS of the front tires until you feel them grab, then you can gently start asking more of them again.

I think if you'd been doing something like that in the figure-8, you'd have dialed in at least 1/4 turn less steering input, you'd have felt more in-control, and you'd have gotten around faster.

That's my take.

Thanks for the input, sounds like figure 8 , it seems I should not have tried to run really close to the figure 8 cones and instead maintained a constant speed with mild steering input and it would have probably made me quicker through it?

Starting to look back to the novice school and remember doing the same thing on the skidpad with the steering input.

I was watching my other videos, I only did the turn around once without adding the excessive input trying to correct myself.

What was the correct line on the turn around? It seems the line I was using, I was understeering into the wall of cones near by each time.

rrath wrote:I suspect this was Loren's subconscious love poem to the G8s, with plenty of opportunities to make up time in the fast parts. Of course, the technical bits gave it away - a lovely "8" as the defining feature. Surely, the RX shared the love, too.

First... one cannot "make up time" on an autocross course. Time can only be lost, grasshopper.

I was really just going for a fun and balanced course that made use of a new (to me) figure 8 element (and trying to place it close to the start so that we could observe it), and the fact that the motorcycle course markings made it really easy to set up that figure 8. In hindsight, it was really a pretty intense power course and the only advantage a smaller car would have had anywhere on course is in the slalom. The power cars had one acceleration from 0-60 (possibly 70?), and TWO accelerations from 25-60. (Any car that can do 0-60 in less than 6 seconds instantly had a 3-second advantage over any standard Miata, and the Miata's only opportunity to compensate was the slalom.) The turn-around and the figure 8 added up to three skidpad turns, but "grip is grip", and any car with sufficient tires should have been able to get around those turns in about the same time.

I think this course (like most of my course designs) came down to thinking ahead a bit and proper car placement to set up for the NEXT element, and being able to execute standard elements (slalom and skidpad) with precision.

aw614 wrote:What was the correct line on the turn around? It seems the line I was using, I was understeering into the wall of cones near by each time.

Turn-arounds are almost always about maximizing the exit. (really, this goes for any turn followed by a straight... a "straight" meaning anything you can accelerate through) So, when you look at the map and walk the course, that's where your thoughts should be. How do I get OUT of this situation with a) the most momentum and b) the earliest application of throttle.

In this case, the answer was very simply to slightly delay or ease your turn-in on the entry apex, and then focus on a late-apex line through the second apex that puts you CLOSE TO, but not INTO the cone wall on the outside of that apex.

If you did it right, you were on the gas before the apex, and accelerating past the short cone wall on the right (and gritting your teeth hoping that you're not running over any of those outside cones... but NOT lifting, and NOT making those harsh last-second corrections), smoothly transitioning into the bend to the right past the long straight wall of cones on your left listening for that "whoosh-whoosh-whoosh-whoosh-whoosh" sound as you flew past them.

It was a rather exciting course to drive, I thought!

Food for thought: If you saw anyone add more steering input at the exit of the turn-around (and a lot of people did... I think even street tire FTD Todd did... and I did ever-so-slightly myself), consider this... if you're driving the turn-around properly as a skidpad turn at MAXIMUM G's, using all available grip, how can you possibly add MORE turning input? Obviously, you're either not turning at max G's, or you're giving up some speed to be able to cut in harder... and giving up speed exactly where you want to be ACCELERATING into the straight! The line into the exit apex of the turn-around was one of the most critical parts of this course... and it was dictated by the line through the turn-around, which was dictated by your entry apex... which was partly dictated by being fully in-control and not missing your braking point on that entry. It was tricky to get right!

twistedwankel wrote:

Carracer wrote: I have no clue how much time was left on track ( a second, two? ) but I feel I wasn't giving too much up. This helped temper my fear that when I get good tires for my car I will still drive like I have all-seasons on.

Summer racing tires are worth a lot of time over AS tires. R Hoosiers are worth a lot more time. Tires are the "easy" time line. The slow approach is shocks, suspension wear components, alignment and tons of seat time. I ran a set of hardass V Goodyear Gatorbacks for over 4 years when I started doing this before I learned how much speed was actually in them. I was old when I started so slow learner? When I finally got a set of R tires that are really close to today's ST 140-200 wear tires they equated to an instant 4-5 second improvement. A new set of Koni type shocks, alignment and bushings on full stiff another 2 seconds on the same bone stock car. It ends where you say it ends. I'm happy when I actually beat a couple H Stock guys times!! With my Vette.

I think I can speak for everyone today and we "all" left some time on that course. I say that of nearly every course for the most part no matter how many runs. If I can get two or more clean runs within a tenth or two I feel confident I have achieved the limit.

Philip, no Miata or RX8 is a slow car....ever. Unless one simply chooses to drive it that way.

Doug

Yep, I guess it's almost silly of me to spend too much time figuring out what the absolute limit is.

As you mentioned my "unique driving style" seems to work with all-season tires but I really don't have any experience with with better tires to know if it was working. I only really felt understeer in my first run, in my second run I was trying to use the cars weight more and the car felt like it was on rails!

On my tires if the car feels like it's on rails I'm actually underdriving the car. I need to keep the front end loaded and let the rear get light. It makes the car feel skittish but it helps kill the understeer. But in the RX-8 I don't think that would be faster if I drove it like that.

I still need to get smoother inputs ( don't all rookies ) so I can keep my car pointed in the right direction without so many corrections scrubbing speed.

Thanks again for letting me drive your car, it really let me see how my car is different or similar than a car with grip.

jbrannon7 wrote:

Loren wrote: Looking at the photos, the dust WAS a problem. Almost every photo shows dust being kicked up by tires.

The farmer has reduced the fun factor at Brooksville IMHO. Grip has been reduced due to sand blowing from the plowed fields and that has increased the number of people going into the field. The plowed furrows and soft sand also has greatly increased the risk of expensive damage to cars that do go off. We had at least 4 cars go off yesterday. From where I was standing it seemed all went off because they got late in the slalom. Autocross is supposed to be a sport where you can drive your car past the edge without fear of damage. I think we need a wider safety margin at Brooksville until the fields return to normal. I realize that you can't have a wide safety margin on the sides and run 2 cars safely past each other, much for the great brain to consider.

On another note, I loved the course. I think the 65 foot slalom was ideal, fast enough to be fun but solid second gear range. I liked the big sweeper that followed the slalom, the turn around and pretty much the rest of the ride back to the figure 8. If you were patient around the 8 you could add throttle early and get a nice fast straight line to the finish. The was a clue in the figure 8, the cone with the 2 pointers at station 2 was centered in the 8, if you kept your entry a little towards that cone you could get into and around the 8 without too much of a push.

Joe

no way man, the figure eight needed to be done the way I did it on my second run. tires spinnin' and tail out.

Carracer wrote:I still need to get smoother inputs ( don't all rookies ) so I can keep my car pointed in the right direction without so many corrections scrubbing speed.

Thanks again for letting me drive your car, it really let me see how my car is different or similar than a car with grip.

Not only can one "feel" understeer push but with street tires you can actually hear them too. Your one Eureka comment after the second run told me you are a quick study: "When I remembered the RX8 has ABS I really used them." Those 600HP calipers you obviously put to good use "hard/late" and got your fabulous raw time. ABS is awesome. That second time BTW was 2.1 seconds faster than your first run also +1:) Clean you would have won S2 with that time but I always assume the only reason I got my "fastest" raw/dirty time is because I took that shortcut

You're very welcome. You are still fun to watch

Loren wrote: listening for that "whoosh-whoosh-whoosh-whoosh-whoosh" sound as you flew past them.

All I ever hear is 5 liters of screaming Motown chamber music.

Loren wrote:I hear ya, Joe. That farmer isn't doing us any favors, that's for sure! Will be nice when he gets something green growing in those fields again.

For now, we're doing what we can, and we're making it a point to clearly state during the driver's meeting in very specific and graphic terms the potential dangers of going off into the dirt. Brooksville being the site that is most available to us, and us being the sort who like to autocross a lot... that seems to be our best option right now.

What he said+1

I think it was Joe who pointed out to me the large particles of sand stinging my legs in that gale were blowing in off that East field and actually started filling up my overturned weighted chair. I wonder if the really heavy rains the early morning Friday floated that sand up? That might have been some of what folks mentioned about grip around the 8? One would have thought the farmer would have seeded by now? I'm at a loss why he did the dust bowl tactic? It's been bare for along time now. I hope they don't plant trees.

I clearly heard the strong advisory of staying on the pavement repeated at the FFA. Years ago I went off in rain at a finish and got the hubcap hula skirt Jeremy referred to. It was actually much worse to clean off than the sand that stopped the car almost immediately being so soft and fluffy this time. NOW I could have left even 1/2 of the car's handling brain on and no one could ever have looped it. Or I could have left the car's brain fully on and a blind person could have driven that course with a smart dog's help of course. I chose to let experienced younger drivers experience a raw fully setup stock car with ONLY ABS engaged and they all did well learning a lot from the feedback.

Maybe in addition to the warning about off roading we can add:

The object of this timed competition is to improve your control of a vehicle at speed possibly avoiding an accident in real life. This exercise will hopefully make you more skillful but NOT SAFER. You have to actually pay attention to be safe. If you want to hit things Bowling is a very good sport. The written object of "bumper cars" is to not actually get hit. Thus the name "Dodgem".