Fixed that for me.Native wrote:I'd be ok with allowing a non-square stock setup to be changed to square with the larger tire setting the limit in 2019.
Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season
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Steven Frank
Class M3 Miata
Proud disciple of the "Push Harder, Suck Less" School of Autocross
______________
I'll get to it. Eventually...
Class M3 Miata
Proud disciple of the "Push Harder, Suck Less" School of Autocross
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I'll get to it. Eventually...
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Native wrote:Fixed that for me.Native wrote:I'd be ok with allowing a non-square stock setup to be changed to square with the larger tire setting the limit in 2019.

so when are we planning on making the 2017-2018 rules official? end of season?
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I'm recovering from food poisoning and I'm confused.
Pay me no mind.
I'm sure the Professor will clarify...

Pay me no mind.
I'm sure the Professor will clarify...
Steven Frank
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I'll get to it. Eventually...
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Proud disciple of the "Push Harder, Suck Less" School of Autocross
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I'll get to it. Eventually...
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Oh, see, he did.Loren wrote:Updated the rule to account for square setup allowance.
Steven Frank
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Proud disciple of the "Push Harder, Suck Less" School of Autocross
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I'll get to it. Eventually...
Class M3 Miata
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I'll get to it. Eventually...
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Doug Adams
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Randy squared = Lineberry cubed
I'm not gonna do it but I could run 315 square setup legally

I'm not gonna do it but I could run 315 square setup legally

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Dan -B-
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It's kind of difficult giving an objective reply since we all have horses in this race
I'm sure for the most part the answers are tailored to each individual's situation. For example, I'm fine with the +20 mm tire limit since my stock width is 205 and I am considering on a set of 225 Nexens for the next set. (Since us Dans have to stick together
). If the proposed limit was set at +10 I'd be pretty disappointed.
So, all that said I'm fine with the only topic that affects my S4 car- I need a way to get at least a chance at upsetting the Miata stranglehold on S4 stickers with my 5 door grocery getter.
On the other hand running wider tires in S4 than are M4 legal also seems strange so keeping M4 at 225 max makes sense to me.
Dan

I'm sure for the most part the answers are tailored to each individual's situation. For example, I'm fine with the +20 mm tire limit since my stock width is 205 and I am considering on a set of 225 Nexens for the next set. (Since us Dans have to stick together

So, all that said I'm fine with the only topic that affects my S4 car- I need a way to get at least a chance at upsetting the Miata stranglehold on S4 stickers with my 5 door grocery getter.
On the other hand running wider tires in S4 than are M4 legal also seems strange so keeping M4 at 225 max makes sense to me.
Dan
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Loren Williams
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Think of M4 as more a progression from S5 than from S4. Both classes are the same, they have no "base"... they are both a voluntary bump down from a higher class.
S4 > M3
S5 > M4
More or less.
The problem in M4 is that a lot of the eligible cars can't easily fit a 225 tire. We're trying to head off a tire-width war in that class.
S4 > M3
S5 > M4
More or less.
The problem in M4 is that a lot of the eligible cars can't easily fit a 225 tire. We're trying to head off a tire-width war in that class.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season
That tire rule won't do it -- NB Miatas come stock with 205 tires, so would be able to run 225 just as well.dbeng wrote:I need a way to get at least a chance at upsetting the Miata stranglehold on S4 stickers with my 5 door grocery getter.Dan
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Jamie wrote:That tire rule won't do it -- NB Miatas come stock with 205 tires, so would be able to run 225 just as well.dbeng wrote:I need a way to get at least a chance at upsetting the Miata stranglehold on S4 stickers with my 5 door grocery getter.Dan

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Loren Williams
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season
Overal Stock Tire Width Limit...
I was just thinking about this, and for cars with WIDE tires, 20mm isn't such a huge change. Someone with 245's, for instance, might go to 275's without issue. Someone with 275's might go to 305.
What if, instead of a hard +20mm, we did something like a 10% allowance. Stock +10% and round up (no more than 6mm) or down a standard size.
So, for 195, that would be 204.5 rounds to 205.
205 > 225.5 rounds to 225
215 > 236.5 rounds to 235
225 > 247.5 rounds to 245
235 > 258.5 rounds to 255
245 > 269.5 rounds to up (within 6mm) to 275
275 > 302.5 rounds to 305
Or, we could simplify and accomplish the same by saying +20mm if tire size is less than 245. 245 and over gets +30mm.
I was just thinking about this, and for cars with WIDE tires, 20mm isn't such a huge change. Someone with 245's, for instance, might go to 275's without issue. Someone with 275's might go to 305.
What if, instead of a hard +20mm, we did something like a 10% allowance. Stock +10% and round up (no more than 6mm) or down a standard size.
So, for 195, that would be 204.5 rounds to 205.
205 > 225.5 rounds to 225
215 > 236.5 rounds to 235
225 > 247.5 rounds to 245
235 > 258.5 rounds to 255
245 > 269.5 rounds to up (within 6mm) to 275
275 > 302.5 rounds to 305
Or, we could simplify and accomplish the same by saying +20mm if tire size is less than 245. 245 and over gets +30mm.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Doug Adams
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I just realized that both of my cars would be running in S1 with these changes.
That works out great for me as I can bring whichever one I think will run that course better
So if one has tires wider than the formula/list allows do they get bumped to M or just up one S level?


So if one has tires wider than the formula/list allows do they get bumped to M or just up one S level?
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Dan Estep
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I could be beating both your cars in S1 if I find some stock springs you say?twistedwankel wrote:I just realized that both of my cars would be running in S1 with these changes.That works out great for me as I can bring whichever one I think will run that course better
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So if one has tires wider than the formula/list allows do they get bumped to M or just up one S level?
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Doug Adams
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No you will only be beating slow ass me - not the cars. Drew took my RX8 with seriously failing clutch in only two runs and beat all of M2 with it...soundly. Joe B and Matt S also did very well with it that day. Way better than me.dan wrote:I could be beating both your cars in S1 if I find some stock springs you say?
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Loren Williams
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Bumping for more votes, and/or more discussion about the Stock tire width limit. Does the "square setup" allowance alleviate concerns? What about if we go ahead and make the width limit +30 if the tires size is 245 or more?
Trying to come up with something that works.
Trying to come up with something that works.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Doug Adams
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Simply due to the availability of proper sizes and price I'd ask for +30mm across the board in stock. Then I can get cheap 255x17" available tires for my original 225x18" car without having to go back to expensive 18" tires. New rims cost a lot less than tires anymore and they last forever.
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Loren Williams
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Let's assume you're talking about a car that has max 225 all around. (we've addressed the staggered possibilities, and if you're talking about squaring a staggered setup, that should already be doable...)
You're telling me that you can't get 245 tires to fit your car that came with 225's?
You're telling me that you can't get 245 tires to fit your car that came with 225's?
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Doug Adams
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season
No - I can get them but they cost more and have more limited manufacturers at present. 255/40/17 is a very widely covered tire.
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Doug Adams
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So back to my original concern. What is the punishment for being over wide with tires? Simply go up one faster S group or to M?
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Loren Williams
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Not sure I'm buying that. (no pun intended)twistedwankel wrote:No - I can get them but they cost more and have more limited manufacturers at present. 255/40/17 is a very widely covered tire.
Tire Rack shows
4 Max Performance and 4 Extreme Performance tires in 255/40/17 for under $160.
9 Max Performance and 3 Extreme Performance tires in 245/40/17 for under $160.
You might be seeing the 255 as a better "bargain" for being a wider tire for the same or marginally less money. But, appropriate tire options are there.
20mm is a pretty big jump in size for anybody running less than 245, IMO. (see above, 20mm covers approximately 10% up to and including 235's)
Allowing a car that comes with 185 or 195 to go up 30 mm is pretty nuts. Some cars will be able to do it, and others won't... and THAT is the problem. Setting a reasonable limit that most cars CAN achieve, and reasonably could achieve with their stock wheels... that's what I'm hoping to achieve.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Loren Williams
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Would have to be the same as any other "over the limit" issue in Stock. Move to the appropriate Mod class. We do that for a lot of things, and sometimes it makes the car "uncompetitive" in the Mod class, but that's the way it goes. Our "Stock" rules are STILL way less restrictive than anyone else's.twistedwankel wrote:So back to my original concern. What is the punishment for being over wide with tires? Simply go up one faster S group or to M?
What your suggesting, "class bumping" in Stock, we don't actually do. We'll turn a blind eye if someone like yourself wants to run an S1 car in S0 or something.* As long as your competitors are okay with it, whatever. But, there is no official class bumping in Stock. We don't allow it for any other mods, we shouldn't do it for tires.
* Since you brought it up, the applicable rule is here: http://drivefast.org/rules/basic-rules/
"Allowing competitors to make agreements that a certain prohibited modification is okay for a particular car in their class is a can of worms that we don’t want to open. To maintain fairness to all, we ask that you always compete in a class that your car is fully compatible with."
Letting a car that has too much tire to run in S3, for instance, run up in S2... would be equivalent to allowing a car in S3 who is running aftermarket lowering springs to run in S2 because they don't meet that requirement. It's just not something we do. If you exceed the Stock limits, you go to Modified.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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