Da Groj

impalanut wrote:#2 doesn't require any calculations for the base classes.

There are only two classes in #2 -- a street tire class and a race tire class. Cars within those two classes are indexed using the PAX index, which is based on the SCCA class structure.

Jamie wrote:

impalanut wrote:#2 doesn't require any calculations for the base classes.

There are only two classes in #2 -- a street tire class and a race tire class. Cars within those two classes are indexed using the PAX index, which is based on the SCCA class structure.

That would be awesome if we had a "ticker" computer. Gulf Coast in Ft. Myers has one, I haven't seen it yet though.

Jeremy wrote:That would be awesome if we had a "ticker" computer. Gulf Coast in Ft. Myers has one, I haven't seen it yet though.

They need something to keep people awake between runs...I had time for a nap between each of mine at the state championships.

I have an old laptop I'm willing to donate to the cause, so long as someone else programs it...would tell you where my programming skill stops, but I don't want to shock Loren with my antiqueness again....

So let me get this straight;
A stock (or nearly stock) mustang with the stock wheels/tires = F
A stock (or nearly stock) mustang on slicks = C
A modified mustang on street tires = D
A modified mustang on slicks = A
A "Street tire" is any tire with a treadwear of OVER 140
A production race tire is .......A DOT race tire, a TW less than 140?
A non production race tire is....... A set of Hoosiers off a late model?

Dang, sorry about the edits, sometimes I feel like..........
I'm Dyslexia from the plane Sunev, fusistance is retile, your a$$ will be laminated.

Let me just cut to the chase, what's a modded mustang with a blower going to run on street tires and with slicks.. Compared to Ascoda who has a modded mustang with a stock motor,( for now anyway).

blacksheep-1 wrote: A stock (or nearly stock) mustang on slicks = C

That would actually be Class B.

blacksheep-1 wrote: A production race tire is .......A DOT race tire, a TW less than 140?
A non production race tire is....... A set of Hoosiers off a late model?

No, I don't think this model separates true slicks from DOT R Compound tires. A race tire is a race tire.

blacksheep-1 wrote: Let me just cut to the chase, what's a modded mustang with a blower going to run on street tires and with slicks.. Compared to Ascoda who has a modded mustang with a stock motor,( for now anyway).

Rob's modded mustang with a blower on street tires = D - Modified street tire 3 liters and greater
Rob's modded mustang with a blower and slicks = A - Modified race tire (all)
Ascoda's class depends on what mods he has done. It could be the same as yours D or A or he could be B or F as long as one of his mods aren't one of the following...

* Any internal engine modification (crank, cams, rods, pistons)
* Any external engine modification that alters fuel delivery (alternate carb, altered fuel injection, fuel-air ratio adjusters)
* Welded chassis reinforcement, including welded roll bars/cages
* Alternate or altered springs
* Altered suspension geometry (relocated pickup points, alternate suspension parts to increase factory alignment adjustment range such as camber kits, camber plates, or slotted strut mounts)
* Alternate main body panels (doors, hood, trunk lid, fenders, roof panel, windows)
* Removal of interior parts (seats, interior panels)

Jamie wrote: * Any external engine modification that alters fuel delivery (alternate carb, altered fuel injection, fuel-air ratio adjusters)

Are there any cars that can add forced induction without modifying fuel delivery?

Here is a rundown of option #1...

A - Modified race tire (all)
*Overdog - SCCA Prepared Class. Fully race prepared car on giant slicks..

*Locally - Anyone with a lot of mods and race tires.
Scott Levengood S2000 (CF Hood bumps him up)
Loren Williams Miata
Ken Schuffert S2000
Brian Hientzman Miata
Ken Gardner WRX
Rob Edwards Mustang

====================================================================

B- Production race tire 3 liters and greater
*Overdog - SCCA SS Class. Corvette ZO6, Porsche GT3.

*Locally - near stock car with large engines or boosted 2.0L and above.
I don't know any locals that fit in this class, but anyone with a near stock STi, Mustang or Corvette on DOT R compounds go here.


====================================================================

C - Production race tire less than 3 liters
*Overdog - SCCA SS Class. Lotus Elise, with AS (S2000) and BS (RX-8) closely behind.

*Locally - Small cars, near stock on race tires.
Todd Byram Neon
Bob Tamandli Miata
Jamie Sculerati Miata
Alan Gross Mini


====================================================================

D - Modified street tire 3 liters and greater
*Overdog - Same as A class, but on street tires.
*Locally - Anything modded on street tires.
Me 240sx
Andrew Scoda Mustang
Charles Blaine WRX


====================================================================

E - Modified street tire less than 3 liters
*Overdog - Same as A class, but on street tires and small displacement.
Prepared Miata.

*Locally - Small cars, any mods, street tires.
Loren Williams Miata on Street tires.
Tim - Blower Miata


====================================================================

F - Production street tire 3 liters and greater
*Overdog - Same as B Class, but on street tires.
*Locally - Big car, near stock, on street tires.
David Wilsey STi
Charles Ray 350Z
Charles Stowe WRX


====================================================================

G - Production street tire less than 3 liters
*Overdog - Same as C Class, but on street tires.
*Locally - Small cars, near stock, on street tires.
Steve Frank Miata
Dan Rasp Miata


====================================================================

R - Open or closed wheel race cars (all)
Don't think anyone cares about this class right now.
Maybe the Lotus 7 Clones go here. Not sure.


====================================================================

Jeremy wrote:I noticed that a Novice class is missing from both choices. Is that intentional?

It may just be an understood class? I don't know. I agree with having a novice class, but I don't agree with splitting novice up into subsections (not that you proposed it, I'm just saying). Novice is novice.

The only class where I see participation being a problem is
B- Production race tire 3 liters and greater
I just don't think we have anyone in this class currently.

But if we do as I suggested before and auto-bump SCCA SS/AS/BS cars. That would restore order to the universe and put all those cars into this class where they belong...
Class B would now have the good matchups...
SS Elise vs. ZO6
AS S2000 vs. Boxter S, C5 Vette, and STi.
BS RX-8 vs. 350Z.
If we ever get any of these cars to show up.
But it does increase the chances of class population.

And this would also make...
C - Production race tire less than 3 liters
more interesting because you now have more cars that could battle for top spot instead of just losing to an S2000 every month.

ie
91+ Toyota MR2
94+ Miata
Skystice
Neon ACR
Mini Cooper S

I think the novices would run with the class their car is in but would be listed in the results as a seperate group. This way they can work with people with experience, and if they want someone to ride with them there should be someone available.

Alizarin wrote:

Jeremy wrote:I noticed that a Novice class is missing from both choices. Is that intentional?

It may just be an understood class? I don't know. I agree with having a novice class, but I don't agree with splitting novice up into subsections (not that you proposed it, I'm just saying). Novice is novice.

Someone earlier mentioned that we don't need a Novice class, and I strongly disagree. So that's why I posted that.

I do prefer that they are split between Street and Race tires, but I won't lose sleep if they are grouped together. We have had people try to run R tires in novice before at SCCA events. Considering most Novices are on all-seasons, that is not even close to fair. I believe even the old Sunriders system split this group up.

I'm gonna chime in (again) and suggest we do not need a novice class.

Lumping novices together may be morally helpful, for a few of them, but if they are in mis-matched cars, they won't be able to compare their times to each other, anyway.

If they WANT to compete, they're gonna be looking at the class they "should" be in, and will compare themselves to those times, not the times of other novices.
If they DON'T want compete, they won't care, regardless of how they are classed.
So we may as well class them where their car belongs.

Combining novices in the regular classes will also serve to better populate those classes, and make timing and run and work group division easier. Running all novices at the same time may slow the pace of the event, and working them all at the same time, well...If they are combined with the regular classes, it will be easier to pair them with a veteran (in their class), both for running and working

Wanna flag 'em as novices, have them put a big N on their cars.

impalanut wrote:I think the novices would run with the class their car is in but would be listed in the results as a seperate group. This way they can work with people with experience, and if they want someone to ride with them there should be someone available.

Yeah, I don't really like that, if I am understanding you correctly. For example, a local Honda club decides that they want to come out and try autocross for the first time. You would have 20 Novices in class E, and therefore 20 Novices out working the course together, running together, etc. Novices should be clearly identified with an N on their door and split evenly throughout all run groups/heats for safety reasons. IMO.

a local Honda club decides that they want to come out and try autocross for the first time. You would have 20 Novices in class E, and therefore 20 Novices out working the course together, running together, etc.

I'm hearing ya, but it ain't gonna happen, and even if it did, yeah, we'd just split 'em up...

Native wrote:

a local Honda club decides that they want to come out and try autocross for the first time. You would have 20 Novices in class E, and therefore 20 Novices out working the course together, running together, etc.

I'm hearing ya, but it ain't gonna happen, and even if it did, yeah, we'd just split 'em up...

I disagree and I have about 5 years experience doing this exact job for the SCCA. When you only have 50 people at an event, you can't just assume that all the run groups will split up nicely and that every novice will have a veteran standing at their side all day. At low attendance events splitting up run groups evenly is the difference between having a great event and having a crap one.

Native wrote:yeah, we'd just split 'em up...

Tell me, who in the organization is going to be actively looking for novices in large groups and then taking the initiative to split them up between heats. My guess is no one.

you can't just assume that all the run groups will split up nicely and that every novice will have a veteran standing at their side all day.

I'm not.

At low attendance events splitting up run groups evenly is the difference between having a great event and having a crap one.

I agree - low attendance or not.

Tell me, who in the organization is going to be actively looking for novices in large groups and then taking the initiative to split them up between heats.

Ok, now I see it how you see it. There is a need to be able to identify novice drivers. Is it a viable option to have a "novice" subclass within each regular class, for identification purposes only? As opposed to splitting them out completely, or is that even more work and hassle?

Native wrote:Is it a viable option to have a "novice" subclass within each regular class, for identification purposes only? As opposed to splitting them out completely, or is that even more work and hassle?

It would be a little more work, but it might be worth it if you are interested in keeping the Novices running with their future classmates.

Personally I wouldn't do it, but that is up to the Worker Chief. I mean a ride along is a ride along, doesn't matter if it's with a "classmate". They'll have plenty of time for interclass bonding later.

I mean a ride along is a ride along, doesn't matter if it's with a "classmate". They'll have plenty of time for interclass bonding later.

True.

If we have no novice group then they run with their classes. If we identify them and let them run with their class it's the same thing. Keeping their scores seperate lets them get a little competition without having to beat experienced drivers. Novice class would be optional. We typically have 4 to 12 novice drivers. Presumably in the street tire classes. Running in three or four groups would naturally split them up since we would probably run a race tire and street tire class in each group. I think spreading them evenly but arbitrarily will be too difficult. Let them drive with their car class.

Jeremy wrote:

Jamie wrote: * Any external engine modification that alters fuel delivery (alternate carb, altered fuel injection, fuel-air ratio adjusters)

Are there any cars that can add forced induction without modifying fuel delivery?

I thought of that case when coming up with the option. Technically it's possible. Practically, any car running a non-stock turbo/supercharger on a stock fuel system will have to keep boost pretty low to avoid blowing up the engine with an overly lean mixture. I think that fits within the big circles we're drawing around performance potential.

Jeremy wrote:Here is a rundown of option #1....

Good breakdown, and great pics! Going into this, we made a deliberate decision to compromise technical equality in favor of simplicity and let driver skill smooth out the differences. If we start cherry-picking specific models and bumping them upward, we may as well go back to either SCCA or NASA classing rules.

As you point out, there are a couple classes that are a bit thin based on our current regulars...I'm hoping we attract more people this year, so looked at classing with an eye towards cars I'd seen at other Brooksville events.

Jeremy wrote:I noticed that a Novice class is missing from both choices. Is that intentional?

Yes. Having also spent several years running novice programs, I don't think there's much utility in scoring them separately -- then we have to figure out when people have to move from novice to regular status, and so on. If we want to, we can award a novice FTD at every event.

We do need to identify them to make sure they're looked after, and there's a checkbox on the entry form for that purpose. If a large enough group shows up in one class that we need to spread them out a bit, we'd probably have to break the class across run groups anyhow -- it's just a matter of insuring we spread the novices out equally across the break.

Seems to me that most people favor option #1, so that's what we'll go with. I'll insert something in the club description on myautoevents, and in the pinned topic here. Can probably print off and laminate something to add to the registration box as well.

Thanks for everyone's input.