Da Groj

Native wrote: Right. If under a hold start condition, courseworkers should call in to timing that the course is clear, and then timing gives the starter the go-ahead. I was unaware that wasn't happening, as to my knowledge that's our standard procedure. The "blind spots" in the course are another thing we aren't used to, and we can call attention to that during the drivers' meeting at that site from now on. And telling workers to get out of the way was the right thing to do if red flags weren't flying - safety first and let the driver worry about the downed cones.

I had a good starter this event that would look toward the trailer to wait for the "all clear - go hot" word from timing after a hold start call. I have had it happen at least once that I kept having to crawl out of the trailer window to get the attention of the starter, until I actually send someone to relay a message to wait until I got the all clear from the station that had called the hold. I time for at least 3 clubs so I do not clearly recall - do we (FAST) have an earpiece for the starter's walkie-talkie and, if we do, is it used routinely? I say that because today I worked grid and several times I had to time my call to the starter between cars revving or launching; my calls were not time critical but informative ---reruns, instructor runs and the like--- but I was still competing against engine noise for his eardrums. If timer's voice is in the starter's ear it will be harder to not hear it for whatever reason.

Here's your other run Phillip.
https://youtu.be/NoLFmBsGD-g

friskyflea wrote:

Native wrote: Right. If under a hold start condition, courseworkers should call in to timing that the course is clear, and then timing gives the starter the go-ahead. I was unaware that wasn't happening, as to my knowledge that's our standard procedure. The "blind spots" in the course are another thing we aren't used to, and we can call attention to that during the drivers' meeting at that site from now on. And telling workers to get out of the way was the right thing to do if red flags weren't flying - safety first and let the driver worry about the downed cones.

I had a good starter this event that would look toward the trailer to wait for the "all clear - go hot" word from timing after a hold start call. I have had it happen at least once that I kept having to crawl out of the trailer window to get the attention of the starter, until I actually send someone to relay a message to wait until I got the all clear from the station that had called the hold. I time for at least 3 clubs so I do not clearly recall - do we (FAST) have an earpiece for the starter's walkie-talkie and, if we do, is it used routinely? I say that because today I worked grid and several times I had to time my call to the starter between cars revving or launching; my calls were not time critical but informative ---reruns, instructor runs and the like--- but I was still competing against engine noise for his eardrums. If timer's voice is in the starter's ear it will be harder to not hear it for whatever reason.

Right - that's what the starter is supposed to do - wait for timing to direct. The starter's radio has a corded external speaker / microphone that is supposed to be used, clipped at the collar or "sleeve" of the vest near the starters ear. It's plenty loud, and we started using it about 6 months ago as we learned that the starter cannot hear the hand-held radio speaker well-enough and consistently-enough.

Could the club experiment with moving the "command center" trailer to a different spot on site to try and get a more complete view of the course area? Running power might be a pain, but we do carry a generator at all times.

We could, sure. But, to see the entire lot, the only good trailer location would be across the lot near the grass field - but that poses numerous other logistical and course layout issues.
And when it comes down to brass tacks, if the starter is not responsive to direction from the trailer...or can't see for him/herself if it's safe to send off a car, it doesn't matter whether the trailer can see or not. Perhaps placing the start at a point of clear view - but that comes with course design challenges as well.

I noticed when braking for the stop sign when passing the crossing line my brakes didn't feel like they were biting. It just felt really smooth like and would feel like the pads were gliding on the rotor(hard to explain). It made me sometimes come to a complete stop by the time I was almost a half a car length ahead of the stop sign. On the last run it did bite harder than the previous runs and was able to stop before I got to the stop sign. I am running brembo slotted with Ferodo DS2500's. I'm assuming maybe they weren't heated up enough yet?

Only 125 runs out of the rivals? Is the car camber limited? Holy smokes I got 225 runs out of a set of RE71Rs and then still sold them for $150 to a track guy

RedBRZ80 wrote:Loren- it wasn't a dig at the event, and 4 runs was fine. FasT runs some of best run events in the area. (Probally explains the sold out nature )and probably one of the most novice friendly clubs IMHO.

I understand, and thanks! I just like to explain stuff like that from time to time. Less experienced people don't always understand all the reasons why things are done the way they are.

For the record (for those that don't know), the number of runs we can do is all about "start interval", how often can we start a car? Our schedule for an Open event is built around 60 minute run groups. That gives us 3600 seconds. With a fairly typical 30-second start interval, and NO down time for reruns, red flags, slow course workers, or whatever, we could do 120 total runs. With a full slate of 27 drivers in a group, that means 4 runs per driver. To do a 5th run without running long, we'd need a start interval a lot closer to 25 seconds. That's not impossible, sometimes it happens. But, since we don't want 3 cars on course, it often makes the overall course length that much shorter, and a quicker start interval can be a challenge for inexperienced workers to keep up with. Our design goal for most typical courses is a 25-35 second start interval... and you never really know what you're going to end up with until you start running cars on it!

Only time that got a bit long in the tooth was the break in between events. (But the wife did like me getting home right after 5, so that's a win)

We have some padding built into the schedule for our lunch break and course walk and tech and all that. On those occasions where the morning runs late, it comes in VERY handy to get us back on-schedule. On days like this where things were pretty close to schedule, we usually try to go ahead and do the driver's meeting a little early once we're sure folks are done walking the course.

vzwire wrote:The issue:
From station 4 I would call "hold start", and a few times the starting line would launch the next car BEFORE I would clear the course.

We do our best to put really sharp and qualified people on Start. A lot of people might not realize it, but it is one of the most important "safety" positions of any event.

I can't speak for anyone else who started on this day, but I was starting during the 3rd run group, and I can tell you what *I* did. From the start line, or within 10 feet of it, I could see nothing behind the fence, of course... but, I COULD see both station 3 and 4 workers in their "home" position. That's what I watched when I couldn't see the car. I started when the car came out from behind the fence exiting the second loop, IF I didn't see any workers flinch. I got a lot of "hold start" calls, and in every case, I was already holding the start, quite often standing in front of the car on the starting line. (for anyone working start, that is THE best way to let EVERYONE know that you're holding the start... ain't nobody starting with the starter standing in front of them, timing can see that at a glance and they know you've got it) The workers in group 3 were pretty good, and usually called a "clear" after they called a "hold", but I didn't always wait for that IF I could see that those workers were done picking up cones and were on their way back to their station. Group 3 seemed to go pretty well!

The only time my method bit me was when the car on course hit a cone (or three) in that chute coming out of the loop section. If they did that, they were hitting cones in a critical area immediately as I was starting the next car. I think it caused two red flags, and the workers were totally ON that situation, it wasn't a problem.

A car would enter stations 3 & 4. Drivers would get lost and carnage would ensue. At that point I would call out hold-start because we have multiple cones down, and sometimes multiple folks from 3 different stations would be on course fixing the aftermath. Meanwhile, the driver that caused the chaos would continue across to the second half of the course. The starter would see this and launch the next car.

Yeah, that shouldn't have been happening. At least not more than once. When that happens, either call your starter and try to talk to them, or call for safety to come out to your station and talk to them. (me, Steve or Drew are ALWAYS available to check stuff like that)

As mentioned above, it WAS possible to stay on top of what stations 3 and 4 were doing. Perhaps one of our starters just needed to be coached on where they should have been looking.

My suggestion is that we MUST ask for a "course clear" once "hold start" has been called to ensure everyone is ready. Even at Brooksville, let's make this as habit as the "all course red flag rule".

I get what you're saying, but you know how hard it is to get workers (even our so-called "experienced" corner captains) to do things consistently and correctly. Being sure our starters are as well-trained as possible, and that they are listening to the radio is the better solution. (if you're ever not sure they're hearing you, radio-check them, if you don't have radio comm with the starter, that's an Event Hold situation unless we're specifically running an event without radios) The starter should HEAR your hold-start, and should be able to rely on his judgement for when the course is clear if nobody calls a clear when they should. Even on this course, the starter could see your stations at 3 and 4. He should have been able to tell if you were on course or standing safely at your station. Obviously, at least one of them wasn't looking for that, and/or wasn't hearing your radio calls... and that was the problem.

If nobody read any of what I said above, here's the important part:

THIS IS STUFF THAT SHOULD BE BROUGHT UP AT THE EVENT! Don't wait until post-event discussion to talk about something you think is a safety problem. We say this all the time: If there's a problem, let us know about it, we'll take care of it! I could have spent about 90 seconds with any one of our starters and solved all of your problems.

CaptainSquirts wrote:I noticed when braking for the stop sign when passing the crossing line my brakes didn't feel like they were biting. It just felt really smooth like and would feel like the pads were gliding on the rotor(hard to explain). It made me sometimes come to a complete stop by the time I was almost a half a car length ahead of the stop sign. On the last run it did bite harder than the previous runs and was able to stop before I got to the stop sign. I am running brembo slotted with Ferodo DS2500's. I'm assuming maybe they weren't heated up enough yet?

Maybe not hot enough, maybe just not properly bedded yet?

Find yourself a quiet street and do some 50-20 stops with cold brakes. (you can really only do one, maybe two before they're no longer "cold") Do they have that "bite" that you felt on your last run? (if so, then they just weren't bedded in before, and now they are) Or not? If not, if you keep at it until they get some heat in them, do they then start to bite?

If you've got pads that don't work cold, they're not the best choice for autocross. (or street, for that matter... pads that require heat to operate are working in "abrasive" mode at street temperatures, which chews up rotors... proper operation at temp is "ablative" mode where brake pad material has transferred to the surface of the rotor and the PAD wears instead of the rotor)

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CaptainSquirts wrote:I noticed when braking for the stop sign when passing the crossing line my brakes didn't feel like they were biting. It just felt really smooth like and would feel like the pads were gliding on the rotor(hard to explain). It made me sometimes come to a complete stop by the time I was almost a half a car length ahead of the stop sign. On the last run it did bite harder than the previous runs and was able to stop before I got to the stop sign. I am running brembo slotted with Ferodo DS2500's. I'm assuming maybe they weren't heated up enough yet?

Just like anywhere else on the course, if you got off the driven line you were on deep sand, same thing happened to me on my last run, just after the finish my anti lock was pulsing the pedal rapidly with very little effect on speed.

My suggestion is that we MUST ask for a "course clear" once "hold start" has been called to ensure everyone is ready. Even at Brooksville, let's make this as habit as the "all course red flag rule".

I get what you're saying, but you know how hard it is to get workers (even our so-called "experienced" corner captains) to do things consistently and correctly. Being sure our starters are as well-trained as possible, and that they are listening to the radio is the better solution. (if you're ever not sure they're hearing you, radio-check them... The starter should HEAR your hold-start)

Can I add... in general, I really like it when the corner captains focus on the radio before or after chasing cones (as and when luxuries provide, just the radio). For the session I was on, several recalls were requested as I can only guess that people were 1.) starting to speak before the mic was live and/or 2.) coming in and out (e.g. call while on the move).

A good pause and a clean call-out make all the difference. Without that, hold start sounds a bit like START! And as much monotony as leading off with station # is to hear, it always gets people past the mic delay and virtually guarantees that the important stuff will make the airwaves.

e.x. Station 3, I need a hold on the start.

/rant

edit: got all phonetic

jbrannon7 wrote:

CaptainSquirts wrote:I noticed when braking for the stop sign when passing the crossing line my brakes didn't feel like they were biting. It just felt really smooth like and would feel like the pads were gliding on the rotor(hard to explain). It made me sometimes come to a complete stop by the time I was almost a half a car length ahead of the stop sign. On the last run it did bite harder than the previous runs and was able to stop before I got to the stop sign. I am running brembo slotted with Ferodo DS2500's. I'm assuming maybe they weren't heated up enough yet?

Just like anywhere else on the course, if you got off the driven line you were on deep sand, same thing happened to me on my last run, just after the finish my anti lock was pulsing the pedal rapidly with very little effect on speed.

I can see how sand on the tires would obviously make my braking less effective but shouldn't I still feel the "bite" on my brake pedal regardless being on sand or not?

Loren wrote:he best choice for autocross. (or street, for that matter... pads that require heat to operate are working in "abrasive" mode at street temperatures, which chews up rotors... proper operation at temp is "ablative" mode where brake pad material has transferred to the surface of the rotor and the PAD wears instead of the rotor)

Yea I read a lot of positives on how these brake pads are awesome and what not from a certain vehicle forum.. They def don't grab when its chilly in winter time. I have to do a couple of hard brakes when I get on the road initially for them to start biting(in the winter cold). I'll try a couple of hard stops to see if maybe this event bedded them and if not I'll try the whole bunch of stops process to bed the pad in. Hopefully it's just that.

If they're a "race pad", what happens on the street is that you might get them bedded in, and then the next time you drive they never actually get up to temp... so they work in "abrasive" mode and essentially erase all of the bedding in that you did. Race pads won't stay bedded in for street use. If you're lucky, these pads are not THAT high-temp. But, if they are, that's what happens.

I put race pads on one of my Miatas to go to Sebring once. Driving around in the evening before I went to the track, I could see the sparks shooting off of the brakes! Totally chewing up the rotors! But, about a lap into driving at the track, as they bedded in and got up to temp, they went from feeling "okay" to feeling "amazing"!

dan wrote:A good pause and a clean call-out make all the difference. Without that, hold start sounds a bit like START! And as much monotony as leading off with station # is to hear, it always gets people past the mic delay and virtually guarantees that the important stuff will make the airwaves.

e.x. Station 3, I need a hold on the start.

/rant

Hold Start is a call that should be repeated at least twice, and clearly. "Hold Start. Hold Start." Repeating it ensures that you didn't clip a vital part of your message. The panicked call while running does indeed often come out as "D START!"

CaptainSquirts wrote:

jbrannon7 wrote:

CaptainSquirts wrote:I noticed when braking for the stop sign when passing the crossing line my brakes didn't feel like they were biting. It just felt really smooth like and would feel like the pads were gliding on the rotor(hard to explain). It made me sometimes come to a complete stop by the time I was almost a half a car length ahead of the stop sign. On the last run it did bite harder than the previous runs and was able to stop before I got to the stop sign. I am running brembo slotted with Ferodo DS2500's. I'm assuming maybe they weren't heated up enough yet?

Just like anywhere else on the course, if you got off the driven line you were on deep sand, same thing happened to me on my last run, just after the finish my anti lock was pulsing the pedal rapidly with very little effect on speed.

I can see how sand on the tires would obviously make my braking less effective but shouldn't I still feel the "bite" on my brake pedal regardless being on sand or not?

I didn't feel any "bite " when I got off line, just like hydroplaning. I have been using the same pads for 35k miles and I know it was entirely dirt related.

Pictures: Both morning run groups and the first afternoon run group.
https://flic.kr/s/aHskAwbPR3

Also it seems like photo editing software and a few other things have suddenly stopped working on my computer When I get that sorted out a few of the "overexposed" and poorly framed shots will be fixed.

friskyflea wrote:Here's your other run Phillip.
https://youtu.be/NoLFmBsGD-g

This is the only video I have from the weekend that I wasn't killing cones in.

Carracer wrote:Pictures: Both morning run groups and the first afternoon run group.
https://flic.kr/s/aHskAwbPR3
Also it seems like photo editing software and a few other things have suddenly stopped working on my computer When I get that sorted out a few of the "overexposed" and poorly framed shots will be fixed.

Great photos Philip, funny, or maybe not, how you have captured people repeatedly making the same mistake in the same place. Lots of full lock counter steer.

Lots of sliding and cone action makes for great photos! Good job, Philip!

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