Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

For any discussion about the club as an organization

Here's how I feel about these rule changes for the 2017-18 Season...

Poll ended at Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:57 pm

Yeah, I'm cool with all of that
9
35%
Don't like the Stock tire width limit
8
31%
Don't like moving AS up to S0
1
4%
Don't like moving CS up to S1
2
8%
Don't like the M4 205 tire width limit
3
12%
Don't like moving AS up to M0
1
4%
Don't like moving CS up to M1
2
8%
 
Total votes: 26
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Jamie » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:52 pm

Loren wrote:Allowing a car that comes with 185 or 195 to go up 30 mm is pretty nuts. Some cars will be able to do it, and others won't... and THAT is the problem. Setting a reasonable limit that most cars CAN achieve, and reasonably could achieve with their stock wheels... that's what I'm hoping to achieve.
Why are you worried about stock wheels? The rules are written to allow any wheel, and this whole discussion arose because you don't want to change that. So given that wheels are free, and even fender rolling is free, the limitation becomes space under the stock fender and ability to clear the suspension -- go too wide, and you may not be able to steer much. Some cars can't, some cars can, and for some of those that can, there's an advantage...so what? The same is true of any other allowable mod in Stock.

You see a specific emerging or potential threat the rest of us don't...what is it? The Miata example doesn't hold water -- NB Miatas had 205s as an option, and later as standard, so this rule wouldn't prevent an NA owner from stuffing 225s under his car. 235s are self-defeating -- they wouldn't fit well without prohibited modifications. If that same NA owner is trying to stay within SCCA Street rules, then they might be running a 205, but having run both 205s and 225s on my Miata, the difference is well within the driver talent range we see. What other examples do you envision?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:04 pm

Only remotely concerned about stock wheels because anyone who wants to remain SCCA "Street" legal will be running them. The wheels themselves don't matter, but if you fit an 8" wheel in place of a 6" wheel, you can effectively (fender and suspension clearance limited) run a wider tire. So, it could come down to things like "is one competitor trying to stay SCCA legal and not run a wider wheel AND not roll their fenders".

If everyone's general concensus is that this is not a problem and won't ever be a problem, I'm okay with dropping it. But, why would putting a limit in place that DOESN'T AFFECT most people bother anyone? Just like our camber rule, it keeps things in check a little bit.

Aside from penny-pinching Doug, nobody is presenting any indication that they or anyone else would be affected by limiting tire width in Stock to +20 (or +30 for 245+).
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Jamie » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:38 pm

Loren wrote:Only remotely concerned about stock wheels because anyone who wants to remain SCCA "Street" legal will be running them.
You brought it up. FAST rule design hasn't worried about "protecting" SCCA-prepped cars before, so now doesn't make sense.
Loren wrote:But, why would putting a limit in place that DOESN'T AFFECT most people bother anyone? Just like our camber rule, it keeps things in check a little bit.
I'm on record as saying the camber rule is a solution looking for a problem (and hasn't found it yet), so that's no help. :) You take pride in a minimalist approach to classing rules; what is the purpose of a rule that DOESN"T AFFECT most people, and is more of an annoyance than a competition leveler for those it does?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby jbrannon7 » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:00 pm

Loren wrote:Only remotely concerned about stock wheels because anyone who wants to remain SCCA "Street" legal will be running them. The wheels themselves don't matter, but if you fit an 8" wheel in place of a 6" wheel, you can effectively (fender and suspension clearance limited) run a wider tire. So, it could come down to things like "is one competitor trying to stay SCCA legal and not run a wider wheel AND not roll their fenders".

If everyone's general concensus is that this is not a problem and won't ever be a problem, I'm okay with dropping it. But, why would putting a limit in place that DOESN'T AFFECT most people bother anyone? Just like our camber rule, it keeps things in check a little bit.

Aside from penny-pinching Doug, nobody is presenting any indication that they or anyone else would be affected by limiting tire width in Stock to +20 (or +30 for 245+).
I am OK with the version where you can go 20 mm or 30 mm wider than the widest tire on the car for staggered going to square setup. Currently I am 10 mm wider than the stock rear but 30 mm wider than the stock front for a square setup that does not require any special mods.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby twistedwankel » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:24 pm

SCCA STX rules are max 9" wheel and 265mm tires for 2wd and max 8" wheel and 245mm tires for awd. AKA "stock" for FAST so far in S2.

265mm tires are limited and expensive or I would have gotten a set of those last year :grin:
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:31 pm

Jamie wrote:You brought it up. FAST rule design hasn't worried about "protecting" SCCA-prepped cars before, so now doesn't make sense.
Until I started seeing it affect people, I didn't worry about it. Admittedly, it doesn't affect A LOT of people, but there are those who want to be competitive under both rulesets.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Jamie » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:13 pm

Loren wrote:Until I started seeing it affect people, I didn't worry about it. Admittedly, it doesn't affect A LOT of people, but there are those who want to be competitive under both rulesets.
So we're back to this:
Jamie wrote:You see a specific emerging or potential threat the rest of us don't...what is it?
I look at the season results and am scratching my head. I look at the Stock class front runners, particularly those I see at both SCCA and FAST events, and don't see anyone running radically big meats...most are on stock or +10 tires. And I don't see anyone in the second tier who'd really benefit from a tire size restriction if implemented. Whisper in my ear....
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:01 pm

The most specific example is Philip. He bought 225 tires and wide wheels specifically to compete in FAST "Stock". Did he need to? That's not the discussion. He thought he did, and he did. And then he had to have another set of tires to compete with SCCA. I just want to discourage people from even THINKING that they need to go to that kind of extreme to be competitive.

I'm not sure why you're so dead set against it, though. A lot of our rules are there to "catch" the outliers. To keep people from taking that one step too far.

You can do what you want to your intake and exhaust, but you can't take it to the next level and tune your fuel. You can do what you want with your suspension parts, but you can't exceed stock alignment tolerance except for camber, which is limited to 2 degrees. You can do what you want with your shocks and bump stops, but you can't mess with your spring rates and ride height. There's just that one limit that keeps the "extreme thinkers" from going too far.

All I'm suggesting is that because we currently have no limit on wheel size (which I'd like to keep for reasons previously mentioned) or tire size, that we should implement a tire width limit. As with our other stock rules, it's just a limit on one of the key things that really makes a difference. It just limits how far you can go, but not so much that it affects the average person who isn't looking for an advantage by going beyond what most people are willing to do. Or perhaps beyond what some of their competitors CAN do.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby twistedwankel » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:17 pm

No one can detect a flashed ECU that's incrypted...just sayin' ... some people are gonna intentionally cheat and no one is going to catch them but they can always outdrive them and smile.

One of my pleasures in life :grin: I just ordered a oBd2 $20 scanner to determine why Mazda put an icon on my dash of an engine other than a rotary?? I might be illegal and not know it? Also note that my front bump stops w/koni's have disintegrated and I'm not going to replace them again. Protest me. Costs a lot of labor money with alignment for something that only lasts 2 seasons. When they die I'll get new ones/sell them and buy Bilsteins that don't fold like a tinhorn gambler.

Was Philip any faster with his big setup? Somehow I doubt it. He could have run in STR on those elsewhere and lost? I'm not any faster with my "big" setup but it gets in the head of my competitors "elsewhere" and I can still win sometimes with my slowing reflexes. :whip:

There are 5 events left to run in S0. Hmmmmm. Maybe next year I'll move to R to get some tires suitable for a Vette?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Carracer » Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:57 pm

The only time I ran 225s on my car was at the endurocross on the Fastiva's wheels. I had 205s on my 15X8s. The only reason I even got the 15X8s is because Joe gave me an incredible deal and it was by far the cheapest way for me to move from 14s to 15s. Now if they did happen to have 225s on them I don't think I would have gone much faster. Yet my car wouldn't have been legal with that rule. So I would have bumped up into M4... but under the new rules my car is suddenly an M3 car. Yet, if someone with an NB did the same thing, they could still be in stock, with a better car. Even still, I just don't see why we need a rule anyway, with just how open the stock class rules are it feels odd within the FAST rule book..
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:21 pm

See, now that's something nobody has presented yet.

NA Miatas and NB Miatas are in the same stock class, but one can run a wider tire than the other under the proposed rule.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Carracer » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:45 pm

I think Jamie already pointed that out. I was just using it in an example.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Jamie » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:04 pm

Loren wrote:See, now that's something nobody has presented yet.

NA Miatas and NB Miatas are in the same stock class, but one can run a wider tire than the other under the proposed rule.
Actually, I mentioned the NB allowance above, but mistakenly thought NAs could take advantage of the update. So yes, NBs can run 10mm wider tires than NAs...and in practice, since 215s aren't common, the advantage ends up being 20mm wider. Whereas without a tire limiting rule, they can both run the same tire.

In theory, since my stock wheel width is a half-inch wider than the NA (or early NB, for that matter), I'm taking better advantage of whatever tire I stuff on there. Why doesn't that drive Jason and Philip to buy half-inch wider wheels?
The most specific example is Philip. He bought 225 tires and wide wheels specifically to compete in FAST "Stock". Did he need to? That's not the discussion. He thought he did, and he did. And then he had to have another set of tires to compete with SCCA. I just want to discourage people from even THINKING that they need to go to that kind of extreme to be competitive..
Well, no, he didn't...he bought some used wheels and tires because they were cheap, and at the time, he was just running with FAST, so the wheel width didn't matter. When he decided he wanted to run with another club, he got wheels to conform to their rules...and is just as fast as he is on his old setup, since he hasn't completely optimized the car elsewhere.
I'm not sure why you're so dead set against it, though. A lot of our rules are there to "catch" the outliers. To keep people from taking that one step too far.
Because in practice, it's a self-eliminating "outlier". It's an unnecessary rule in a club that advertises a minimalist approach to rules. The rules as initially written prevented combinations of engine modifications that yielded significant power increases (displacement changes, greater compression, more fuel AND air), chassis modifications that yielded significant handling improvements (chassis stiffening, springs, geometry modifications), and weight reduction. Since then, it's been about restricting the exploitation of some perceived advantages some unspecified cars may have over others -- a slightly greater range of adjustment in alignment, or an inch of extra possible tire width. Maybe, since we haven't seen any real examples, and the wide range of cars and driver talent in most classes masks those nuances anyhow.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby jev61 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:21 pm

I vote we let folks run the width of tires they want. It doesn't seem to be a problem now and if becomes a problem, then we can address it then. Some folks will always want wider tires because they like the look, some will want them because they perform better.

[*] Stock classes, except S5, should not have a tire width restriction because SCCA allows tires to be replaced with any size that fit the allowable wheels and fender wells without modification. We already have many people showing up that compete with FAST and SCCA, it seems unfair to make them bump up a class just for tire width. And we would have to police the tire widths to know which cars to bump and which ones not to bump.

[*] M4 should be allowed the current 225 width tires because it is the current SCCA allowance for STS; Miatas and Civics could show up to play with us in M4.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:16 am

jev61 wrote:Stock classes, except S5, should not have a tire width restriction because SCCA allows tires to be replaced with any size that fit the allowable wheels and fender wells without modification.
We have no restriction on fender rolling or modification/removal of fender liners. Under our current rules, a person could potentially run a wider tire than they could in SCCA stock.
We already have many people showing up that compete with FAST and SCCA, it seems unfair to make them bump up a class just for tire width. And we would have to police the tire widths to know which cars to bump and which ones not to bump.
Not likely to happen for the reason mentioned above. I haven't (and can't) look at all possibilities, but I think it's unlikely that anyone who's car is set up within SCCA Street rules will have a tire that's more than +20 (or +30 for 245+) wider than stock.
M4 should be allowed the current 225 width tires because it is the current SCCA allowance for STS; Miatas and Civics could show up to play with us in M4.
M4 was never meant to be STS. Those STS-prepped Miatas and Civics should be competitive in M3. M4 is intended for the true underdog cars, where something LESS than M3 can be competitive. The average Joe (not to be confused with the extraordinary Joe) off the street who has lowering springs with stockish wheels and stockish tire sizes who has been bumped out of stock... that's what M4 is about. IF we allow 225's, then the only difference between M3 and M4 is a limited slip diff. If the same cars are winning M3 and M4, we'd be better off combining the classes. But, I don't want to forsake "the underdog". That's why our M4 and S5 classes exist.

To my knowledge, the only car that has regularly competed in M4 on 225's was the FASTiva. We've gone back to 205's, which is what everyone else in class is already running. It is a logical size for M4. M4 is a class that is unique to FAST, just like S5 is.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby jmdoc66 » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:31 am

Not likely to happen for the reason mentioned above. I haven't (and can't) look at all possibilities, but I think it's unlikely that anyone who's car is set up within SCCA Street rules will have a tire that's more than +20 (or +30 for 245+) wider than stock.
My car came with 8.5 wide rims and 235 tires, SCCA rules allow me to run 285s on the stock sized rims. The new FAST rules would only allow me to run 265s. I believe the 285s allow me to keep up with the newer cars in S3. It's definitely not driver talent.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:41 am

jmdoc66 wrote:
Not likely to happen for the reason mentioned above. I haven't (and can't) look at all possibilities, but I think it's unlikely that anyone who's car is set up within SCCA Street rules will have a tire that's more than +20 (or +30 for 245+) wider than stock.
My car came with 8.5 wide rims and 235 tires, SCCA rules allow me to run 285s on the stock sized rims. The new FAST rules would only allow me to run 265s. I believe the 285s allow me to keep up with the newer cars in S3. It's definitely not driver talent.
THIS is the kind of information that I needed to know. Without doing a BUNCH of research, I won't find stuff like that.

Edit: And don't sell yourself short. You know that NO car drives itself. If you're keeping up, there is talent involved.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Rpwolf » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:32 pm

some of this is going over my head, so forgive me for my ignorance, but had anyone thought of not allowing fender rolling? it's a body mod and from what I gather most people going to that extent are already out of stock class. that would inherently limit the tire width and it's simple enough?
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby Loren » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:06 pm

I don't want to get draconian and say 'no fender rolling'. Maybe someone did a light fender roll on their car in a previous life? But, we could perhaps put a limit on it, where there currently is none. The rule says you can't replace fenders. Doesn't say you can't roll or pull or stretch.
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Rules Changes for 2017-18 Season

Postby PrestonJ » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:35 pm

Any talk about starting a pro class based on SCCA classing and the PAX system? Works well for a lot of other clubs, can potentially limit any rule change at all, those who actually compete outside of FAST can simply run in pro and be rack and stacked against each other. Not sure what timing software you use though, pretty easy to do with AXware.

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