Feb 15 Post Event

[NervesOfThrill]

That's a good point about the rhythm. That is probably one of the stronger elements in creating the sensation of "fast".

I like this course too for the truly fanatical speed freaks:

http://youtu.be/Oe9LtnsB35I

[Professional_Slacker]

wow, that looked cool.

[aw614]

I don't think any cars have a first gear lockout on a manual transmission. (computer controlled automatics are a different story) They just have the physics of the transmission and engine and the speeds that they are turning.

Consider that the difference in gearing between 1st and 2nd means that if you're at 2500 rpm in 2nd (a pretty slow speed... around 20 mph), when you downshift to 1st, you'll be at 4000 rpm. To get into first gear at that speed, you need to do two things: 1) have some patience and allow the first gear synchro to work. 2) Give the throttle a HEALTHY blip (you've got to get from 2500 to just over 4000!) to make the synchros have less synchronizing to do.

Because most people don't give that big throttle blip to get the revs up to 4k, it will often FEEL like the transmission is locking you out of 1st gear.

You could get into double-clutching theory, but for a quick downshift with a properly functioning modern synchromesh transmission (modern being anything made since about 1930!), a good throttle blip and some mechanical empathy (don't jab it into gear so hard that it grinds) is all you need.

You're right about the first gear not having a lock out just tried it today, for some reason I thought not giving that throttle blip was a lock out since I was always told to avoid first gear unless you were going slow or stopped,

I've been noticing I can usually glide it in first, at moderate speeds with no blipping, I'll have to try to blip it.

[lddavis91]

FYI...

This course was as fast as a true autocross should ever be. Maybe even a touch faster. Look at any club or insurance company's definition of autocross, and it says something like "maximum speeds for the fastest cars should not exceed normal highway speeds", some even specify a maximum speed. It is very hard to regulate, of course.

To put it into perspective, a Really Fast street car (something like Les' Corvette) should almost never exceed about 70 mph. Which means that a slow car like my Miata should never exceed 60 mph. Any course that has a stock-engined 5-speed Miata (or anything similar) hitting the rev limiter in 2nd is borderline. If I have to shift into 3rd, it's a really fast course.

This course had me on the rev limiter on the way out, and in 3rd on the way back. You won't see a faster course than this at a FAST event. Not only would it be in violation of our contract with the airport and our insurance policy, it would simply be irresponsible.

I only just barely exceeded 70 mph in a few spots. My second gear tops out at ~72 and I breathed on the rev limiter once on the way out and again right before the finish. I was all over the rev limiter on the way back but the two times I tried to utilize 3rd to got faster, once resulted in my getting 1st instead and over-revving, the second time I managed a reasonable shift to third and probably got up to 75 or so, but that extra speed threw me totally off and I majorily screwed the final gate before the finish. Meh, should probably just leave it in 2nd, rarely does a shift to 3rd work out effectively in my vette.

BTW "highway speeds" have evolved over the decades we've been doing this as well Loren, used to be that 55 was the maximum everywhere, now we have highways in America with 85 mph speed limits! Yea! So as long as the wording of the rules is "highway speeds" I'd say we are good to go even if we touch 85. ;-)

So, if that is in the contract with Brooksville airport, how does the Corvette club get away with what they do? They just say screw the contract, or do they have a different contract? Just curious.

[lddavis91]

That's a good point about the rhythm. That is probably one of the stronger elements in creating the sensation of "fast".

I like this course too for the truly fanatical speed freaks:

http://youtu.be/Oe9LtnsB35I

Damn. Were you using 6th gear? That is really more of a "hill climb" or tarmac stage rally than an autocross. Did anyone end up in the swamp with a mangled car?

[Loren]

BTW "highway speeds" have evolved over the decades we've been doing this as well Loren, used to be that 55 was the maximum everywhere, now we have highways in America with 85 mph speed limits! Yea! So as long as the wording of the rules is "highway speeds" I'd say we are good to go even if we touch 85. ;-)

Perhaps, except that I was intentionally being vague. SCCA's "rule" changes every other year, but here's the current version: "Generally, maximum speeds in the mid 50s to low 60s (mph) are contemplated for Street, Street Touring®, and Street Prepared category vehicles, and WITH LIMITED EXCEPTIONS AS DESCRIBED IN SECTION 2.2, MUST BE OBSERVED, since these are speeds with which the average driver is familiar from everyday road driving." (section 2.2 is course design rules)

So, SCCA lets their max speed "evolve" and be non-specific, relying on their certified Safety Stewards to use good judgement. (Which results in National level courses that are very fast... and local clubs feeling that they need to match that because they need to provide equivalent courses, even though most of them don't have the kind of site available that is used for the Nationals.)

But, and I can't stress this enough, we DO NOT operate under SCCA rules. We operate under our insurance company's rules, and in the case of Brooksville, also the AIRPORT's rules.

K&K (our insurer) says: "Speeds on straight stretches should not exceed 70 mph for the fastest class of automobiles." They leave a bit of an "out" by using the word "should" rather than "shall", "will" or "must". But, the fastest class of automiles would be something like Howard's mod car that completes a course 4 seconds faster than a street car... which puts street cars right back into the mid 60's max for cars that have things like doors and speedometers.

But, that doesn't matter because our contract with Brooksville (which I can't find a copy of right now) specifies a maximum speed of 70 mph. (used to be 60, I think it is 70 now)

So, if that is in the contract with Brooksville airport, how does the Corvette club get away with what they do? They just say screw the contract, or do they have a different contract? Just curious.

We've been told that all of the clubs sign the same contract. I can't answer questions about what other clubs are doing. Corvette club always says "our events aren't autocrosses, they are test and tune events". Idunno. To me, it comes down to how fast you want people to be driving if they hit the grass.

All that being said, I prefer NOT to discuss speed limitations that we (and every other club) may or may not be fully in compliance with for every individual car on every course. Regulating speed to a specific limit at an autocross is nearly impossible, all we can do is try our best to keep our speeds reasonable and our courses safe. If anyone decided to bring a radar gun out and get nitpicky, we could have a problem! So, I don't like to carry this sort of discussion on an open internet forum.

[Tim_M]

Andrew Wong: I apparently disapproved of the 4th gate from the start and refused to accept its location...3 times in a row.

Loren: A 6th fun run would have possibly been some nice closure to my day...or I could have ended up in the dirt. I will dial in a bit less oversteer and smoothness next round.

Les: What kind of hand position is that? I have no room to talk...

[Jamie]

There was an SPC course with a literal pin turn that IIRC had me grabbing first. I thought it was cool as hell, but I also recall a healthy dose of bitching from multiple sources. With that in mind, we should definitely do that again!

It's been a really long time. I might toss one in somewhere. Maybe dream up a way to make it optional. (an easy, but much longer turn vs. a tight hairpin)

No pin turns! No! You want to throw in a 35' diameter turnaround, fine, although 40' would be more fair to the pony cars and 'Vettes. But no pin turns!

Just in case there's any confusion:

[Loren]

I think we're on the same page, we just have a difference in how we use the term "hairpin".

What *I* am envisioning is a 20' radius turn. (40' diameter... probably coned at 50') To me, that is a "hairpin". Anything tighter than that would be downright painful, and I wouldn't do that to you.

Does that ease your mind any?

[BrilloHeadBen]

This was the course I'm talking about. Sure the AWD cars blew the doors off of everything else, but there's not AWD cars in S2, so I didn't care

[Spin Out]

Woo Hoo! Somebody complimented my January PCA course. Thanks Jeremy.

Loren, I'm kicking around the idea of using a lightly modified version on your original course for April's PCA. Hopefully you'll see it as the sincerest form of flattery. I thought the start and turn around were ideal.

[Loren]

Loren, I'm kicking around the idea of using a lightly modified version on your original course for April's PCA. Hopefully you'll see it as the sincerest form of flattery. I thought the start and turn around were ideal.

[lddavis91]

Les: What kind of hand position is that? I have no room to talk...

What?! I had both hands on the wheel most of the time even. I'm a long haired guy from North Carolina, I learned to drive with one hand on the steering wheel and the other hand holding a beer, I've come a long ways.

[Jamie]

I'm a long haired guy from North Carolina, I learned to drive with one hand on the steering wheel and the other hand holding a beer....

You can't drive like a Floridian until you trade in those fancy close-toed shoes and do that in flip-flops.