Da Groj

AScoda wrote:

Had a Hackett smashing run going on run 5, until I grabbed 4th gear in the turn-around. Turns out, not the best choice.

Welcome to the M2 mosh pit, Phillip. Elbows up.

I don't like the sound of Hackett smashing run.. these msms are too hard to shift. We should have a gentleman's agreement that you just keep limit yourself to first and second gear for the remainder of the season

Good run Chris. Looks like your frame is flexing as the door gap changes at each steering input. You get your hot starting issue solved?[/quote]

The starting issues weird runs ok but gets tired after the 4th run did this 2 weeks ago also

Evil MS3 wrote:But I agree, if you were able to carry a ton of speed leading up to the entrance, taking the right side would have made you shave off a lot of speed.

Nope!
The right side entry didn't require any slowing. I didn't brake until after the 1st cone, likely the same place I would have on the left. Right side was still super easy to get into. Exit was way better.

I was working corner 4 during the second heat and I was surprised by how many people went right into the slalom. It seemed like you could carry noticeably more speed going left and since you were slowing toward the end of the slalom anyway it seemed like it should have been measurably faster. I only went left and am not consistent enough anyway to give first hand driving feedback on which way was faster. Although I do wonder if the cars getting into the rev limiter and going left would have benefited going right since their speed was maxed out anyway.

On the turn around it seemed like the cars staying out a bit on the turn around were quicker. The real tight cars seemed to give up to much momentum.

I never could find a place I liked for 1-2 shift at the beginning of the course. I tried staying in 1st through the first three cones but I struggle with this car at high RPM's (still haven't unlocked the mystery of the S2000).

Great course and would like to see it again.

I said the right side would be better and Les talked me out of it... I knew I should have tried it at least once!

AScoda wrote:

Evil MS3 wrote:But I agree, if you were able to carry a ton of speed leading up to the entrance, taking the right side would have made you shave off a lot of speed.

Nope!
The right side entry didn't require any slowing. I didn't brake until after the 1st cone, likely the same place I would have on the left. Right side was still super easy to get into. Exit was way better.

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Glen wrote:I was working corner 4 during the second heat and I was surprised by how many people went right into the slalom. It seemed like you could carry noticeably more speed going left and since you were slowing toward the end of the slalom anyway it seemed like it should have been measurably faster. I only went left and am not consistent enough anyway to give first hand driving feedback on which way was faster. Although I do wonder if the cars getting into the rev limiter and going left would have benefited going right since their speed was maxed out anyway.

On the turn around it seemed like the cars staying out a bit on the turn around were quicker. The real tight cars seemed to give up to much momentum.

I never could find a place I liked for 1-2 shift at the beginning of the course. I tried staying in 1st through the first three cones but I struggle with this car at high RPM's (still haven't unlocked the mystery of the S2000).

Great course and would like to see it again.

Sometimes its better to short shift vs being on the limiter, it may not feel faster, but sometimes it is b/c you end up maintaining around the same speed + some more speed vs bouncing, however that is course dependent.

For this course, based on my video and looking at my tach, I shifted to second gear around at the second pointer cone at around 7,800 to 8,000 rpm in my integra vs taking it up to 8,400. I think the s2000, should be ok with short shifting from 1st to second.

I tried going in tight on the turn around thinking it was faster, and from my videos, it looked a lot worse than the one run I went wider than I intended.

I entered on the left on every run, but I was in 3rd gear and boosting pretty hard. I'm still not sure if there was a difference going to the right, but I can't complain about the results. The only big mistake I see is when I got out of shape at the end of the slalom on the downshift. I was so sure that killed the run that you'll hear me yell about it!

https://youtu.be/qFv3JNY9fxw

Hmm now I really wish I would've went right at least once. I had it in my head that it wasn't worth it to try and just focus on the same entry every time. Maybe that would've been the key for the extra .16 sec I would've needed to beat Aaron for 1st in M3!

Anyways, here's my 38.375 in the seemingly unpopular left entry for slow cars. I wasn't hitting the limiter in 2nd so I figured I'd ride out that straight as long as possible.

https://youtu.be/ZrmL-wVA9Uk

What a great course. Sucks that my car stays in 2nd gear redline for a lot of it, was .4 behind David so can't complain. Too bad my go pro didn't save my runs, I wanted to see a 3rd person view of my last run save through the gates.

I think I need an MR2 in my life. I only did 3 runs in it but good enough to match 1st in M4. I'm sure this thing had 37s in it.

https://youtu.be/iTPPk7VCNU4

Oh, did anyone pick up a black inverted umbrella around station 2? Needed it today : /

Glen wrote:I was working corner 4 during the second heat and I was surprised by how many people went right into the slalom. It seemed like you could carry noticeably more speed going left and since you were slowing toward the end of the slalom anyway it seemed like it should have been measurably faster.

The exit is almost always more important than the entry. When looking at any option, look at what's next. And what's after that. Which option gives me the best exit?

That applied to this slalom. You had an easier shot through the last two apexes toward the finish by exiting to the right, which meant entering to the right. And there was little or no penalty for entering on the right if you set up a little bit for it. If you had a really fast and heavy car, it's possible that you might have had too much speed to easily get to the right... that might have been the only cars that "should" have gone left. But, as mentioned, it wasn't a "strongly weighted" option. Either way could work on this one.

It's standard racing line logic. "Slow in, fast out."

You can apply the same logic to the turnaround. What line gets you the best exit speed? For me, that was going very slightly wide on the entry, staying tight on the cones in the middle (not adding "depth" to the turn-around), and letting the car go as wide as it wanted to while getting on the gas as early as possible. You had plenty of room to go wide as long as you squeaked inside that cone on the right side coming out of the turn-around.

Kshader wrote:Anyways, here's my 38.375 in the seemingly unpopular left entry for slow cars. I wasn't hitting the limiter in 2nd so I figured I'd ride out that straight as long as possible.

Nice run! Good example of going left in a slower car that slaloms well. I think the only thing you might have gained by going right is that you could have been full throttle at the last slalom cone and through the finish. More speed there... and probably not giving up any speed on entry of the slalom by going right. That's really the only difference. Maybe worth a couple tenths?

I had the Mirage on the rev limiter through the finish so hard that I actually tried to shift into 3rd while passing the last apex once!

Geez, I really lacked at stations 2's half box left hander and the entry speed into the decreasing slaloms compared to all the others videos posted. Really should've tried going into the slaloms without braking.

Loren wrote:That's really the only difference. Maybe worth a couple tenths?

Haha, a couple on tenths is all I needed! Super fun course, and now I've learned my lesson of letting the course map make my decisions for me

Kshader wrote:Super fun course, and now I've learned my lesson of letting the course map make my decisions for me

If you have to look at the course map other than to refresh your memory (2 hours later after your walk(s) and worker assignment) it is probably a bad course design. That doesn't happen very often, BTW. Not at Brooksville. Before printed course maps I used to draw my own and note the paces between cones. I still see some people do that who are used to only getting 3 timed runs in competition. Maybe we should do that sometimes. Only count the first 3 runs for competition. The rest add 5 cones like another group does. Especially in the new Pro class for Dunnellon?

Steve and I did discuss "count the first 3 runs" for the PAX class at Dunnellon. I can think of 2, maybe 3 people (drivers with National level aspirations) who that would appeal to. Not sure everyone else would be too keen on it. So, we didn't.

Another idea that has been proposed, and maybe someday we'll do it at a Classic event, is the "no map, no course walk" event. Someone even suggested having like 3 pairs of people go out and put the course together on-the-fly with no pre-drawn design. (basically, old school autocross setup... that's the way it was usually done!) Two guys do the outgoing side, two guys do the return side, two guys do the turnaround part... and do whatever transitions are required to link the pieces together. Have safety walk it, add pointers, tweak it as-needed, do a safety run... and rock it!

But, nothing like that will be happening at THIS event.

Loren wrote:Steve and I did discuss "count the first 3 runs" for the PAX class at Dunnellon. I can think of 2, maybe 3 people (drivers with National level aspirations) who that would appeal to. Not sure everyone else would be too keen on it. So, we didn't.

Another idea that has been proposed, and maybe someday we'll do it at a Classic event, is the "no map, no course walk" event. Someone even suggested having like 3 pairs of people go out and put the course together on-the-fly with no pre-drawn design. (basically, old school autocross setup... that's the way it was usually done!) Two guys do the outgoing side, two guys do the return side, two guys do the turnaround part... and do whatever transitions are required to link the pieces together. Have safety walk it, add pointers, tweak it as-needed, do a safety run... and rock it!

But, nothing like that will be happening at THIS event.

Ooh that sounds interesting (the no map one). I'd be in for that kind of classic event.

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Loren wrote:Another idea that has been proposed, and maybe someday we'll do it at a Classic event, is the "no map, no course walk" event. Someone even suggested having like 3 pairs of people go out and put the course together on-the-fly with no pre-drawn design. (basically, old school autocross setup... that's the way it was usually done!) Two guys do the outgoing side, two guys do the return side, two guys do the turnaround part... and do whatever transitions are required to link the pieces together. Have safety walk it, add pointers, tweak it as-needed, do a safety run... and rock it!

That sounds like fun!!!

Lots of talk about the turnaround, people that walked it with me heard my discussion of math and pie. The turnaround ans setup is primarily a semi circle that was 50 feet across, yes, I looked, so if we take the radius of that, 25 feet, and multiply it by pi we get a line right along the cones that equals 78.5 feet. If you drove the turnaround as drawn on the map the radius was 52 feet, multiplied by pi equals 163 feet. A much longer line. My line had a radius of 36 feet so my line was 113 feet, that radius allowed me to apex the semi circle exactly where I wanted. The next thing about the semi circle was speed, if you were pushing and tires howling you were too fast, if your tires were silent, like mine, you were too slow, you want your tires to just squeal a little. Here is a video of my turnaround line. I had my camera poorly positioned so I am not posting the complete videos. Also a jpeg of the turnaround portion of the map.

https://youtu.be/tQKExhHk294

CalebChristy wrote: Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:00 pm

Loren wrote:Another idea that has been proposed, and maybe someday we'll do it at a Classic event, is the "no map, no course walk" event. Someone even suggested having like 3 pairs of people go out and put the course together on-the-fly with no pre-drawn design. (basically, old school autocross setup... that's the way it was usually done!) Two guys do the outgoing side, two guys do the return side, two guys do the turnaround part... and do whatever transitions are required to link the pieces together. Have safety walk it, add pointers, tweak it as-needed, do a safety run... and rock it!

That sounds like fun!!!

I agree!

I used to draw the lines on the course maps to be very misleading. I'd have put that line super-tight, right on the cones. Or, maybe a "middle-of the road" constant radius that was 10' off of the cones. For a couple years, I used to even make the line about 15 feet wide! Just something generic to show you "this is where the course goes, figure it out".

In more recent years, I find that putting the line on the map PROPERLY, actually helps me in the design process... and even if I put a PERFECT racing line on the map, you guys aren't gonna follow it, anyway.

So, as with the snippet that Joe posted, more often than not, the line on the map is going to give you a hint as to what the correct line might be. BUT, NOT ALWAYS! I'm still an evil course designer, and if I put an evil course designer trick into the course, I'm not necessarily going to give it to you for free. You should always analyze the map for potential short-cuts, hidden straights, things that were put into the design as a treat for those who know how to read a course. (pro-tip: turn-arounds and anything that looks like it's a "painful" kink will often have a sneaky "fast line" if you look for it) And sometimes there are those things that we didn't even intend... but, you might find them. And, as previously mentioned in this thread... sometimes we add in a little trick (might be a good trick, might be a bad trick) at setup that's not even going to appear on the map. The map is still 98% accurate, but maybe we moved some cones a couple feet one way or another? Maybe things were too fast, and the simplest solution was to make a 5-cone slalom into a 6-cone slalom? (we'll usually announce if we've added anything, but sometimes we forget) You gotta walk the course and pay attention to stuff like that.

Always remember, "exit speed trumps all", and the element before the longest straight is the single most important turn on any course.