Red Flags

[Dave]

We an issue at the last event that had the potential for disaster. We have recently started directing that when one red flag is waved, they ALL should be waved, but at the last event, this didn't occur. A driver had made a mistake and the flagman went to render assistance. As the next car approached, no one else on course was waving their flag, plus, the flagman for that area was helping the car with the problem, so no one was signalling the next car. And, there was a third car, and of course, no one signalling him as well. Lucky for us, the second car saw the problem and stopped. The third car never saw an issue, never slowed, and BARELY completed the course right behind the two cleared cars ahead.

Obviously, this is not as big an issue at SPC, BUT, we should train and practice one method, and one method only, no matter which course we're on.

We're looking to make the drivers' meeting notes stress this issue more so than we have, and also add the following:
1. If you initiate a red flag, you should call on the radio "Red Flag" "Red Flag" "Red Flag".
2. As a course worker, upon hearing this, wave your flag.
3. If you see something and wave your flag, you MUST be aware of what's coming up from behind your issue, and if you need to assist, have your partner do so while you watch for additional cars from behind.

This isn't a hard change to make, but considering how close we came to a disaster, it's one that we need to take action on.

[Jeremy]

We have recently started directing that when one red flag is waved, they ALL should be waved

Is this NASCAR?
People should know how to use flags properly and not waste our time red-flagging an entire course when it very rarely is needed.

I think flagging should be a standard and not have each club make up it's own rules on how to flag.

[Jamie]

We have recently started directing that when one red flag is waved, they ALL should be waved

Is this NASCAR?
People should know how to use flags properly and not waste our time red-flagging an entire course when it very rarely is needed.

I think flagging should be a standard and not have each club make up it's own rules on how to flag.

Actually, the only "standard" I'm aware of, anywhere I've been, is that if one station red flags a car, the whole course goes red. When to red flag (versus calling the starter and asking for a hold, or getting a driver turned around and on their way again) is a judgement call depending on spacing and course layout, but after the flag's thrown, there's really no other choice. We really don't get that many red flags.

We get a fair number of occasional autocrossers along with the newbs. And while we strive to appoint experienced corner captains, experience varies, and "worker training" is just the drivers meeting. We do talk about the need to pay attention to the whole course, but it's no bad thing to keep reminding everyone that while your team is dealing with the crisis in front of you, someone needs to be aware of what's happening on the rest of the course, and deal with that to avoid things getting worse. Very occasionally, weird things happen on course...sometimes weirder than what we had a couple weeks ago.

[Native]

I agree w Dave and Jamie. One red flag will hold the start most of the time anyway so the whole course should go red.

And what courseworkers should know is different from what they do know...which Jamie already said.

[Jeremy]

Actually, the only "standard" I'm aware of, anywhere I've been, is that if one station red flags a car, the whole course goes red.

Seriously? I've never heard of or seen that before.

They do this at national events?

[Jeremy]

So if there is danger at the turnaround, we are supposed to wave all flags including flagging the guy who has already passed the danger and is finishing. Got it.

[puncturina]

We should not leave it to the discretion of individual corners to decide if they need to "participate" in the red flag event. They may have no idea what is going on and where the problem is, and by the time they figure it out, it may be too late. I have worked at always looking behind the cars at my station, so if there is danger ahead, I will probably have no idea what is going on (no snarky comments please).

This past weekend, at another club autocross, I was at the third of six stations at B'ville. A red flag was called, and I was the only one at any of the SIX stations to jump out with the red flag. Unfortunately, I was at the turnaround and the driver was already looking the other way. He finished the whole course without slowing down. Wow. What a recipe for disaster.

Better safe than confused and sorry.

[Loren]

Eva nailed it.

And Dave is our official safety guy. What he says goes. This was not posted for debate.

[Jeremy]

A red flag was called, and I was the only one at any of the SIX stations to jump out with the red flag.

That sounds pretty standard for an autocross in this area. I don't trust anyone out there.

[Jamie]

They do this at national events?

Yes, they do.

So if there is danger at the turnaround, we are supposed to wave all flags including flagging the guy who has already passed the danger and is finishing. Got it.

When to red flag (versus calling the starter and asking for a hold, or getting a driver turned around and on their way again) is a judgement call depending on spacing and course layout....

[Dave]

So if there is danger at the turnaround, we are supposed to wave all flags including flagging the guy who has already passed the danger and is finishing. Got it.

You have a valid point, but I have had the opportunity to witness even SCCA corner workers get it wrong at professional events.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing our corner workers a bit, they all do a great job. But the majority of our corner workers are less experienced, and the opportunity to miss something while trying to make a decision on the fly can lead to task saturation a little quicker. With that, and the fact that these situations do not occur that often (knock on wood), we still have to be as cautious as possible, because as we witnessed recently, when they do occur, if not dealt with properly and quickly, can lead to disaster. Something we should strive to avoid at ALL costs.

[jmdoc66]

This may be a little off topic, but I would like to bring up respecting the person administrating the driver's meeting.
I was in the back of the crowd and there were a couple people talking during almost the entire meeting.
Yes, I bet most of us could give the higher points of the meeting verbatim in our sleep, but the new guy/girl next to us may not be able to.

I also noticed a lack of people working during the second run group.

Just a couple observations.

[Jeremy]

This may be a little off topic, but I would like to bring up respecting the person administrating the driver's meeting.
I was in the back of the crowd and there were a couple people talking during almost the entire meeting.
Yes, I bet most of us could give the higher points of the meeting verbatim in our sleep, but the new guy/girl next to us may not be able to.

Bullhorn or microphone and amp would solve that. Or you could be THAT GUY and shush people during the entire meeting.
Personally I hate trying to listen to someone talking without amplification. There are always going to be ambient noises preventing 70+ people trying to listen to one guy without amplification.

[Jeremy]

So if there is danger at the turnaround, we are supposed to wave all flags including flagging the guy who has already passed the danger and is finishing. Got it.

You have a valid point, but I have had the opportunity to witness even SCCA corner workers get it wrong at professional events.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing our corner workers a bit, they all do a great job. But the majority of our corner workers are less experienced, and the opportunity to miss something while trying to make a decision on the fly can lead to task saturation a little quicker. With that, and the fact that these situations do not occur that often (knock on wood), we still have to be as cautious as possible, because as we witnessed recently, when they do occur, if not dealt with properly and quickly, can lead to disaster. Something we should strive to avoid at ALL costs.

What we really need are caution lights like F1. And then someone centrally placed to run the lights. Most of the time corner workers suck, myself included.

[Jamie]

What we really need are caution lights like F1. And then someone centrally placed to run the lights.

There's an idea! Ron, could you get on that? You can run them from timing.

The point is, we're not flagging cautions, we're stopping the action. Even on a track, a red flag means "stop the race."

[Jeremy]

The point is, we're not flagging cautions, we're stopping the action. Even on a track, a red flag means "stop the race."

Well we have different definitions of a "autocross" red flag then. And since there doesn't seem to be a published definition, I guess we are both right.

The only thing I found on the internets was...

RED FLAG PROCEDURES
When a competitor receives a “Red Flag” during the timed run, he/she will stop, wait for
directions from a course worker, then finish the course at a moderate speed.

Sounds pretty similar to what I've always heard. Never once have I heard "All drivers will stop, wait for directions" etc.

[jmdoc66]

my $.02 worth

I vote for "If one red flag is flown, all red flags fly, and all cars stop"
Reasons;
1) This will take any decision making out of the corner workers hands..period.
2) Red flag reruns are cheap. Who doesn't want an extra run.
3) How often do we have red flag events? Not often. Better to be safe then sorry.

Jeremy, I get your point. But I think consistency is the key.

whatever is decided needs to be brought up in the drivers meeting. I follow whatever the event coordinator decides. I'm just there to drive and play nice with others.(by court order.)

[Native]

We should not leave it to the discretion of individual corners to decide if they need to "participate" in the red flag event. They may have no idea what is going on and where the problem is, and by the time they figure it out, it may be too late. I have worked at always looking behind the cars at my station, so if there is danger ahead, I will probably have no idea what is going on (no snarky comments please).

This past weekend, at another club autocross, I was at the third of six stations at B'ville. A red flag was called, and I was the only one at any of the SIX stations to jump out with the red flag. Unfortunately, I was at the turnaround and the driver was already looking the other way. He finished the whole course without slowing down. Wow. What a recipe for disaster.

Better safe than confused and sorry.

Eva nailed it.

And Dave is our official safety guy. What he says goes. This was not posted for debate.

^^^This.
But do feel free to continue to discuss.

[Rawkkrawler]

my $.02 worth

I vote for "If one red flag is flown, all red flags fly, and all cars stop"
Reasons;
1) This will take any decision making out of the corner workers hands..period.
2) Red flag reruns are cheap. Who doesn't want an extra run.
3) How often do we have red flag events? Not often. Better to be safe then sorry.

Jeremy, I get your point. But I think consistency is the key.

whatever is decided needs to be brought up in the drivers meeting. I follow whatever the event coordinator decides. I'm just there to drive and play nice with others.(by court order.)

+1

[Jeremy]

1) This will take any decision making out of the corner workers hands..period.

That's a good thing? One station still needs to be the first person to make the decision to throw the flag.

Say you have a group of people who don't know how to drive. So they buy a bus to transport them around. One person still needs to be able to drive the bus.
Are we now going to have a dedicated safety steward with eyes on the course AT ALL TIMES to direct the action? If not then this doesn't really solve the problem.

The problem is courseworker education, courseworkers slow to react or courseworkers not reacting at all. Solve those problems and then all this new rule does it create reruns. It's possible this rule might even make the problem worse, because now courseworkers can think they don't have to know how to flag, all they need to do is wave the flag when someone tells them to.

A red flag was called, and I was the only one at any of the SIX stations to jump out with the red flag.

That sounds pretty standard for an autocross in this area. I don't trust anyone out there.

Unless I am reading that wrong, it sounds like a red flag was called over the radio and no one did anything. How is that going to be different at FAST events?