July 21st SPC

[Native]

Get up.
Go to autocross.
Drive and have a blast.
Go home.
Shower.
Get on computer.

A 50-second course at SPC, with runs split, and still got in 5 runs and done around 3. Spectacular. Ok, so lunch was on-the-go, but there was plenty for all.

And it didn't rain until we had to clean up. A BIG and SPECIAL thank you to the guys who stuck around getting wet and braving lightning to help put away the trailer and reset the police course.

Mike did a great job putting together the event as a rookie chairman, and will tell all of you what a piece of cake it is!

Who wants to chair the Sept. event at Brooksville? And October at SPC? Nov and Dec at Brooksville?

[vvsinc]

Had a great time. Eric and I snapped some pics. I have a few of various cars if anyone is looking for something specific email me vvs@tampabay.rr.com


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James

[vvsinc]

[img]http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7668 ... opymy8.jpg[/img]

[snookwheel]

I had a BLAST! Can't wait for the next one. Thanks for putting it together Mike, Jamie and crew.

VVSINC, sent you email looking for pics of the yellow Solstice. (anyone else have any, pls. let me know)

Scott

[Alizarin]

I won my class! First time, and probably the last... Time to celebrate!


To those who may complain about the number of runs, I have to say, it worked out good. Everybody would have gotten wet, and with the lightning in proximity, we would have probably shut things down for safety.

The split runs, on the other hand...

[Native]

Thanks to Kenny (congrats, by the way), our computer timing guru, the results are ready:

http://wedrivefast.com/Results.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please note: the files labeled "competition" contain everyone's first three runs, and is the official finishing order that will be used to tabulate season points. The files labeled "all" include the non-competition runs we did in the afternoon, and can be used for bragging, trash-talk, or what-have-you. 8)

[Jamie]

To those who may complain about the number of runs, I have to say, it worked out good. Everybody would have gotten wet, and with the lightning in proximity, we would have probably shut things down for safety.

The split runs, on the other hand...

One of those hindsight things...we were really, really trying for at least six runs. If I known weather and time would conspire to prevent that, I'd have taken Charles suggestion and run five at once. At 11, though, the weather still looked pretty good, and it was hot enough that even five runs all at once would have pushed good sense...six wouldn't have worked, especially since the average times were a good 10 seconds greater than I'd estimated. Oh, well. I'm feeling good enough about finishing the event with a dry course and everyone getting the same number of runs.

Lots of thanks to the newbies who stayed and shared the joy of resetting the SPC course in the rain. And I hope the novices -- who were literally half the grid today -- enojyed themselves enough to come back for the September event. Brooksville courses tend to be easier to follow just due to the runway layout, and are a bit longer (distance-wise) and faster. Lots of fun!

[Dave-ROR]

:thumbup: great event as usual.

The biggest problem with the split runs was just people leaving IMO. I don't like split runs either, but it's not that big of a deal, except when finding workers for that second set of runs

Anyways, see you all in September.

And perhaps if we keep getting this # of novices maybe another novice school is in order...

[Alizarin]

Big props to Ridell for stepping up and laying the smackdown on his last run... that little 2.5 can move!

And to Jamie, if we had decided to run all runs at once, I was going to go run waters out to the course workers just to make sure nobody passed out from the heat.

[kickslop]

I'll be the one to call it out.

What's the deal with only 3 competition runs?

Someone please explain where/how we screwed this event up with regards to this.

[rippin mazda]

Great day. Alot of friends and family came out to watch and now understand autocross alot better. Some comments from my parents (who have never sugar coated anything to me): "it was amazing how friendly everyone was with each other. Their was no aruging or excessive swearing.....the whole event seemed very professional."

Taking that as an independant opinion since they had no previous experience with the club means that we are doing something right. Everyone deserves a pat on the back IMO.

As for the 3 comp runs, it's just part of the game. Thunder and lightning were looming and the decision had to be made. In hindsight, we could counted all 5 since the rain held off and everyone had the same conditions, but hindsight is 20/20.

Steve et al, had to make the call and they said timing was the first 3 runs. Had they said the PM session still counted and went for 3 runs, it would have killed all the 3 heat drivers since they would have, at best taken 1 dry and 2 wet runs and, at worst zero runs because the workers had to be called in for safety (lightening).

I look foward to the next event to spite the fact that it is quite some time away.

Ryan

[kickslop]

I don't follow that logic at all.

If and when it actually rains... that's when you decide N runs, which everyone was able to get in dry, counts.

It didn't rain and everyone got 5 runs. We're counting 3 of them. That blows.

[Jamie]

I don't follow that logic at all.

If and when it actually rains... that's when you decide N runs, which everyone was able to get in dry, counts.

It didn't rain and everyone got 5 runs. We're counting 3 of them. That blows.

I been in both situations, including some serious championship events, and found that there's no decision that will make everyone happy. Call it after the fact, and people with good runs they thought would count but are thrown out are unhappy. Call it before the fact, and people with good runs that they know won't count are unhappy. We made our best estimate on time and weather, and made a decision.

[Dave-ROR]

I don't think anyone is happy about the 3 run thing, but it's in the past so whatever.

I think some of the problem was the course though, I'm not sure what the start interval was, but there was a very noticable lag between runs, likely due to a longer start interval. SPC is nice, but we have to be really careful with course designs there.

[Bone]

Thanks to everyone that made this event a success. I had a blast, and it was REALLY fun to have my car running well..... and to learn how to drive it with stiffer springs.

A few thoughts I had, and of course hindsight is 20/20.....

I thought the course was great for SPC. We actually did slow it down some, perhaps unnecessarily. Next time, I'd consider driving it (per Loren's suggestion) to make sure speed is not an issue if there is a question about the need to slow people down.

The course was intuitive once you drove it a few times but gave quite a few people a problem their first few laps. One of the goals/statements in the design guide for autocross is that no one should get lost on the course.

There are a few things that make that a virtual impossibility for us, with the first and foremost being that we have a lot of novices at our SPC events. We had a TON of novices this weekend, and if they are having problems it is our responsibility to help them.

I'd like our group to consider the cost/benefit of making it standard practice of not only walking the course with the novices, but requiring that they do a mandatory parade lap AND that an experienced driver ride with them their first 2 laps at a minimum..... and perhaps their entire first event. Graduates of the driving school would be exempted. Their designated rider will have to notify safety (or some other designee) that the novice driver can make it around the course without getting lost and creating a hazard.

I know we don't need another position to fill, but having someone in charge of novices and instituting the suggestions above (or something else, if someone has other ideas) should save us quite bit of time with re-runs and cone-resetting, and it should improve the novice experience with FAST.

I say all the above because I don't think there was any problem with the way the course was coned or chalked. It was really easy to follow, and flowed exceptionally well. It did not take long for almost everyone to figure out how to get through the course safely.

Other observations..... re: the competition runs and "fun" runs...... If it comes up in the future, would it be possible to have a standing guideline that we proceed with the afternoon set of runs as per normal, but if there is an interruption/termination prior to the completion of the full second set of runs, we only count the morning session? I just don't see the need to have any decision made to exclude sets of runs based on a contingency unless the contingency actually happens.

Let me also throw out there that this is an amazing core group of people that have set something special up for themselves and others that want to learn, and I'm proud to be a part of it. It's really great to hear that third party observers have kind words for this organization.

See ya in two months!

RC

[Jamie]

OK...first I have to learn how to type in correct English grammar....

I thought the course was great for SPC. We actually did slow it down some, perhaps unnecessarily. Next time, I'd consider driving it (per Loren's suggestion) to make sure speed is not an issue if there is a question about the need to slow people down.

Could be. From listening to the radio, the feature that seemed to attract the most off course calls was the kink along the fence -- the very feature we tightened to slow cars down. The new version didn't flow very well, and we probably could have left it a bit looser and less visually confusing.

The course was intuitive once you drove it a few times but gave quite a few people a problem their first few laps. One of the goals/statements in the design guide for autocross is that no one should get lost on the course.

Absolutely...even after all the work we did on the course to make it more visually intuitive, it bugs me that a handful of folks didn't find their way around until the afternoon session, and that one guy gave up entirely. Not a successful course in my view.

There are a few things that make that a virtual impossibility for us, with the first and foremost being that we have a lot of novices at our SPC events. We had a TON of novices this weekend, and if they are having problems it is our responsibility to help them.

I'd like our group to consider the cost/benefit of making it standard practice of not only walking the course with the novices, but requiring that they do a mandatory parade lap AND that an experienced driver ride with them their first 2 laps at a minimum..... and perhaps their entire first event.

Even with novices comprising nearly half the field (I'm not exaggerating, either!), I don't think there was any lack of help for them -- a couple of us were actively offering rides to or to ride with anyone who came in with an off-course run...in a couple of cases, just inviting ourselves along. I must have ridden twice as many runs as I drove.

Brian did what looked like a very thorough novice walk...we should probably make that mandatory for novices. A parade lap for SPC isn't a bad idea, either...I don't think it's necessary for Brooksville.

I know we don't need another position to fill, but having someone in charge of novices and instituting the suggestions above (or something else, if someone has other ideas) should save us quite bit of time with re-runs and cone-resetting, and it should improve the novice experience with FAST.

While I've advocated this in other clubs (and held the position as well), I think FAST actually does a very good job of looking after novices without it. Without fail, we always have a couple of people (not always the same ones, either) watching the field for novices having problems, and everyone is willing to take a rider or ride along if asked. That's a compliment to the whole club, and many of the comments I've received either directly or via e-mail from first-time or new-to-FAST participants amplifies it.

Other observations..... re: the competition runs and "fun" runs...... If it comes up in the future, would it be possible to have a standing guideline that we proceed with the afternoon set of runs as per normal, but if there is an interruption/termination prior to the completion of the full second set of runs, we only count the morning session? I just don't see the need to have any decision made to exclude sets of runs based on a contingency unless the contingency actually happens.

Six of one, half-a-dozen of another. It's not something that I'd expect to come up often...frankly, if we're going to get spun up about points runs and standings, we've lost sight of what the "F" in FAST stands for.

A couple of other things for everyone to mull on. The bullhorn was a good idea, but I'm not sure it's all that effective, especially at SPC, where people are more widely scattered. I realize we're prohibited from using the PA system there, so I don't have a good solution to suggest...maybe someone else does.

Last, we're going to have take greater accountability measures for work assignments. I'd hoped to just post assignments and rely on people's sense of responsibility to hustle out there, but the long delays between heats yesterday were mainly due to having to chase down workers. Reality is that we don't assign an excessive number of workers, so if they don't turn up on time, the delays will drive us to fewer runs. The people regularly reading this forum were not the problem, and neither were the first-timers...rather, it seemed to be our more casual regulars. Beyond defining a set changeover time interval between groups and taking a positive roll-call of workers as they go out, I haven't nailed down a way ahead.

See ya in two months!

Definitely...doesn't look like I'll make anything in August, so by September will be deep in withdrawl!

[Native]

Ryan, thanks for passing on the compliment from your family. My first event with this group (then Sunriders) was a novice school, and I've tried not to miss an event since. One of the most impressive things about the club is exactly what your folks pointed out - everyone is friendly, helpful, laid back, and while we keep time, and points, the competition is light-hearted. And it has been that way for years. And will hopefully stay that way. And I agree with Ron - it's great to be a part of it. I don't have a lot of personal experience with other clubs, but I'd bet it's a common autocross thing...

Yeah, the 3 runs thing. Like Jamie said, it was a judgement call. We knew when we did it not everyone would be happy. And Ron made an excellent point, at the event to me and in his post. Should the situation ever come up again, all runs will count, unless something actually does interfere, like the threat of electrocution by lightning, and should that occur, we decide then how many runs will be competition vs. noncompetition. A good idea. Live and learn.

Not that it matters now, but here's my .02 on the course: It did flow well, and I really like the challenge of decreasing radius turns. Getting 50 second runs is cool! I didn't like the way it was coned - broke several of Roger Johnson's rules (and also just didn't suit my own tastes). IMHO, chalk lines don't make up for that. People were getting lost during both early and late sessions, and, not to totally contradict myself, but I think because, in some ways, it was like Drew's last course at Brooksville - if you weren't looking ahead, forget about it. And that's always gonna be rough for novices. If it had been coned a little differently, it might have been less of a problem.

Parade lap may have helped. Someone mentioned it to me at the event, but I can't recall who. Parade laps eat up time. It's a trade-off. It's also up to the event chair - if the Chair wants it, it's their event. As for how to handle novices, well, we've beat that around before. And it can be beat around again. Another idea in addition to the ones already posted is to identify novices at the start line, and let them be on-course alone - give up the start overlap for their first one or two runs. That way, if they go off, no harm done. And we also don't strong-arm them into training they may not necessarily want. FWIW, I actually have a bigger issue (or pet peeve ) with course workers - they don't flag, they don't hustle (at least the guy who ran out in front of me was actually running...), there's no teamwork. It's a lot more than just shagging cones, and most folks don't get that - if we're gonna add positions, I'd love to see a Course Worker Coordinator, or some such, person or persons whose job it is to roam from corner to corner (or just always accept a cornerwork assignment and be a "pro") and coach the workers.

wow, I got a little long-winded, there... 8)

[muddy]

I think the root-cause of the lack of runs and worker problems was having 3 run groups with 2 run/work heats each. This is very inefficient, as the workers and grid had to change 6 times. If there will be two run/work heats, there should be 2 run groups. 3 run groups should be used when there is a) enough workers, b) fair weather to allow all runs to be done at once c) a course capable of running two cars at once.

3 run groups with a single run heat, IMO, is the most efficient way to run an event. Workers and grid need only change 3 times, versus 4 with the 2 run group/split heat system. It is also nice to have some time to relax during the "off" heat.

[Jamie]

I think the root-cause of the lack of runs and worker problems was having 3 run groups with 2 run/work heats each. This is very inefficient, as the workers and grid had to change 6 times.

Actually, the difference isn't that great. It works out like this for a 60-driver event (we had 58):

3 groups of 20, 4 runs apiece at a 30 second interval (our target interval) -- (40 minutes run time + 15 minute changeover)*3 groups = 165 minutes.

2 groups of 30, 4 runs apiece at a 30 second interval -- (60 minutes run time + 15 minute changeover)*2 groups = 150 minutes.

Of course, we weren't running a 30-second interval...it was more like 40-45 seconds. As a result, we cut back to 3 runs:

3 groups of 20, 3 runs apiece at a 42 second interval (which is really inefficient, but about what we were running) -- (42 minutes run time + 15 minute changeover)*3 groups = 171 minutes.

2 groups of 30, 3 runs apiece at a 42 second interval -- (60 minutes run time + 15 minute changeover)*2 groups = 156 minutes.

Either way, we're talking about a 15 minute difference per session (30 minutes for the whole event). But running 3 smaller groups means 20 minutes less time working the course for each worker, plus 40 minutes downtime they wouldn't otherwise get -- double that for the whole day. That's pretty significant in summer heat, especially considering variations in age and fitness.

We weren't managing 15-minute turnovers, either...if we had, we'd have started the second set of runs by about 1:30 instead of 2:15. So the big time killers were the extended interval and the slow turnovers

3 run groups with a single run heat, IMO, is the most efficient way to run an event.

Sure it is...but I'm not putting people out on course for 80+ minutes in the middle of summer. IIRC, this was discussed in one of the earlier event threads, and we had a choice of cutting back 4-5 runs for one run heat, or run split groups and getting 6-8. Most people wanted more runs.

[muddy]

3 run groups with a single run heat, IMO, is the most efficient way to run an event.

Sure it is...but I'm not putting people out on course for 80+ minutes in the middle of summer.

I said that you need fair weather to do it. Obviously FL in July is not fair weather.