Classing for 2014 Season

[Loren]

Let's briefly and quickly discuss any potential classing changes for 2014.

First, any new cars like the BRZ/FRS we'll look closely at how SCCA has classed and park them accordingly. (pretty sure that's S2 and M2, but will verify it and everything else with the latest SCCA classing)

What we're talking about here is ideas that might balance out our competition among the classes. What I mean is, give the people who are coming to most of our events a class to play in where they can be reasonably competitive, but also where there is sufficient competition. I don't think we want to add any more classes, but good ideas will be entertained.

Have a look at the current Points table, look at the drivers who have at least 3 events in class (those are the only ones who could potentially qualify for a trophy this season if they run the last 2 events in class) That gives us:
R1 - 6 drivers
R2 - 3 drivers
M0 - 3 drivers
M1 - 10 drivers
M2 - 11 drivers
M3 - 6 drivers
S1 - 10 drivers
S2 - 10 drivers
S3 - 3 drivers
S4 - 4 drivers
S5 - 2 drivers

My brief thoughts on each class:
R1 & R2 - I still don't think we need to combine them, and the wild variety of cars in R1 would make an "equitable" split impossible, plus it would make the class too small. On top of that, FAST has always been primarily a run what you brung "street tire" kind of club. So, I think those two classes are okay as-is.
M0 - The light turnout makes it look like a candidate to be dropped, but I still think we need a place for M1 cars to progress to. This one should stay.
M1 & M2 - Two of our most popular and competitive classes. Could maybe look at changing the split (currently ASP/BSP, CSP/ESP) to add a class in the middle... but I just don't know. If it ain't broken? Anyone who wants to chase that idea needs to do some legwork and split out all of our current M1-M2 competitors into their SCCA SP classes so we can see what can be done.
M3 - Finally becoming a little more popular at the expense of S4 and S5. Combining it with ANY of the faster mod classes would completely kill any of these cars.
S1 & S2 - Another pair of super-popular and highly competitive classes. Not much we could do to make those classes any smaller... they're mostly all the same few car models!
S3 - Mmmmm... could potentially combine with S4, but that makes the slower S4 cars even less competitive. Probably leave this one alone.
S4 - Used to be "the other Miata class", but with so many more older BMW's and other cars showing up lately, and so many of the older Miatas going Modified, it's turning into a nice mix. Not much need for change here, except what I'm going to mention below.
S5 - By far our least-subscribed class. But, just like we need M0 on the top end, I think we need S5 on the low end. But, that doesn't mean we can't monkey with it and get more cars eligible for the class. Remember that "real street tire" class that I proposed a while back? Maybe combine that idea with S5? One single class for all the S5 cars PLUS any car that is wearing 195 width all-season tires? Something to think about, anyway.

Anyhow, now is the time. If we're going to change anything at all, we need to have it pinned down by August 1.

Discuss.

[Jeremy]

m0 sucks.

I going to go to with my old stand-by. Either no classes or only 2 classes. Street tires, and race tires.

Why race against 4 people when you can race against 90?

Instead of dropping all the classes, maybe just display the overall results on the screen somehow?
I think it would be more interesting and motivating if someone knew they only needed a couple tenths to move up the overall board instead of needing 2 full seconds to move up in their class.

For example, Joe Schmoe in a lowered Corolla might need 4 seconds to catch up to Greg's Neon, but he may only need a couple tenths to catch up to a poor driver in a ZO6. That's cooler to me than watching a losing battle. Joe Schmoe can go home and say, I beat a ZO6!

[Loren]

I don't see us doing away with classing, but the idea of posting overall position is an interesting one. It would definitely give people more achievable immediate targets to shoot for. Will have to see if there's a way to display that list.

[Greg]

I like the idea of the overall times on the screen. Especially since we have no idea what the first group of the day ran... It would help clear things up.

We need to figure out how to split the screen to display both the current results and the overall times.

[impalanut]

SCCA is reclassing the stock class for next year. Stock class will now be called street class and will be run on tires with 140 treadwear in 2014 and 200 treadwear in 2015. There will likely be some changes of where cars are classified. They are also combining gs and hs, and really changing ss, as, and bs. This actually should make things better for using them as our template since now our street tire classes will correlate to their street tire classes. I think the final classification just came out in the last week.

[Loren]

Yeah, that is actually good news for us, Howard. I'd heard some rumblings about that, but nothing official.

I sort of wonder how much difference it will really make, though. What's the time difference between, say... Hoosier DOT autocross rubber and the latest, greatest BFG Summer "street tire"? That difference used to be on the order of 2-3 seconds on a 60-second course. I'd bet it's getting closer to a second as street tires get better and better.

And the 200 TW limit just means that the big tire makers will be sure to stamp all of their "street tires" with a minimum 200. (and, realistically, using the OLD standard 100 as a basis... most of them probably ARE a legitimate 200+)

[BigBlue]

I'll start working on a way to display overall position with our software and see what I can come up with. I think it would have to be in addition to the position in class so that people can see both.

I have thought about printing the morning results so the afternoon drivers could see what they are up agains. It just hasn't moved from being a thought to being an action yet. I'll make that a priority at the next split event.

[Loren]

I still don't think printing the morning results for a split event needs to be a priority at all. The MORNING drivers don't get the benefit of knowing how the AFTERNOON drivers did. We have no reason to go out of our way to ensure that the AFTERNOON drivers have that benefit.

Just drive. Drive like the wind!

Anyhow... this is getting off the topic of classing and should be discussed elsewhere.

[Jeremy]

Combine s3 and s4. I think they used to be until some NA Miata driver cried that Mustangs were too fast. lol
Get rid of m0. We've only had 1 m0 car this year and 1 last year for a combined 2 events total.

[Native]

^^^ combine S3 and 4. Quick glance at several last events' results there's a lot of overlap in those two classes (and paying no mind to which cars...).
Else, it ain't broke.

[jbrannon7]

The morning drivers are not concerned about results. The real divers drive in the heat of the afternoon when asphalt is hot and the rubber is sticky. I love the smell of hot asphalt in the early afternoon.

[Jamie]

Yeah, that is actually good news for us, Howard. I'd heard some rumblings about that, but nothing official.

The proposal's official. The final rules details and the classing are still in flux, from everything I've seen. They'd proposed allowing limited modifications -- much like we do in the "S" classes, although I don't think the proposed mods were an exact match. There's been a lot of cross-talk, though, and who knows what letters have come in.

I sort of wonder how much difference it will really make, though. What's the time difference between, say... Hoosier DOT autocross rubber and the latest, greatest BFG Summer "street tire"? That difference used to be on the order of 2-3 seconds on a 60-second course. I'd bet it's getting closer to a second as street tires get better and better.

R-compounds haven't stood still, either. Grassroots Motorsports did an R-compound vs street tire test last year or the year before, and concluded both had advanced at about the same rate...so the gap stayed pretty constant.

And the 200 TW limit just means that the big tire makers will be sure to stamp all of their "street tires" with a minimum 200. (and, realistically, using the OLD standard 100 as a basis... most of them probably ARE a legitimate 200+)

Yes...to really make that meaningful, they'll have to start using the exclusion list...failing that was how we got to where we are now.

[AScoda]

I like the idea of the overall times on the screen. Especially since we have no idea what the first group of the day ran... It would help clear things up.

I have thought about printing the morning results so the afternoon drivers could see what they are up agains. I'll make that a priority at the next split event.

Although off-topic a bit, this shouldn't be on anyone's to-do list.
Loren is right here, if you want to know what someone ran, ask them. They will tell you or they won't. In a regular format, with the exception of the very last driver, you would never know what the time to beat is. That should not change.

[Jeremy]

Loren is right here, if you want to know what someone ran, ask them. They will tell you or they won't.

I agree. Don't waste time registering, teching, and walking the course. You should be tracking down 50 people and finding out what they ran. Brooksville is a little trickier since you'll have to chase down people as they are driving on US41, but it is still doable.

In a regular format, with the exception of the very last driver, you would never know what the time to beat is. That should not change.

In the regular format, you could walk over to the display and see the current class results any time you wanted to.
Not sure what you mean by that. Maybe you mean the overall results. If so, then yes, only the very last person would be able to see everyone's time unless everyone ran simultaneously. Maybe we can make this a goal for next year. Try to find a site that permits 100 simultaneous runs.

edit: Nevermind, I think I know what you mean now. You don't want your classmates to know what you've run before they start running? That's pretty weak. Either you lay down a good time or you don't. To quote Loren. "Drive like the wind". To restrict others from seeing your time is childish and scared. I'll tell you my time, let you watch my in car video, give you tips on car placement, ride with you, etc. If that means I lose, oh well.

Plus the afternoon session hasn't filled up. Just register for the afternoon if it bothers you that much.

double edit: Doesn't the software already tell you class position and distance to first? So you already get the info after you take 1 run.

[Loren]

double edit: Doesn't the software already tell you class position and distance to first? So you already get the info after you take 1 run.

This.

The display tells you after each run what position you are in your class and I believe it tells you both how much time you are from the next position, and how much time from first.

[AScoda]

I'll tell you my time, let you watch my in car video, give you tips on car placement, ride with you, etc. If that means I lose, oh well.

I do too. I never said it was my personal beef.
I just think we need to make sure the double format stays as close to normal event conditions as possible.

[Loren]

Okay, not a lot of response here, so my first thought is to just leave things alone.

But, to recap, the only real classing change I'm seeing support for here is to combine S3 and S4... and none of the supporters are competitors in either class. Now, I'm not for or against the idea just yet. But, I like to thoroughly examine the details before making such a change.

Let's have a look at where those classes come from. FAST Stock is based on SCCA stock. The main difference is that we allow any wheel and any street tire, whereas SCCA allows ONLY stock size wheels... but race tires. We're a little more flexible on other mods, but most of them aren't extremely relevant to the overall autocross equation. It ends up being pretty close, I think... at least for those who fully optimize their wheel and tire setup, which many seem to do.

SCCA stock classes can be compared somewhat accurately by the PAX index, which is an index derived from national and divisional level autocross events and compares each class with the fastest class, A Modified. So, AM has an index of 1.000. If your class has an index of .900 and you ran a time of 50 seconds, you would multiply that time by .900 to get your theoretical AM time.

Here are the 2013 stock class indexes (in parenthesis is an extrapolation of that class' time on a course that an AM car would turn a 40.000 time on):
SS: 0.859 (46.566) -- S1
AS: 0.847 (47.226) -- S1
BS: 0.845 (47.337) -- S1
---
CS: 0.834 (47.962) -- S2
---
DS: 0.826 (48.426) -- S4
ES: 0.828 (48.309) -- S4
---
FS: 0.830 (48.193) -- S3
---
GS: 0.816 (49.020) -- S5
HS: 0.804 (49.751) -- S5

So, that's the basis of our stock classing.

B Stock cars are essentially handicapped by about .8 seconds vs. Super Stock cars in our fastest class. (and I really don't know which cars fall into which class these days... other than things like newer Vettes will always be in SS)

CS stands alone as our S2 class, which is well-subscribed. Nothing to see there. (aside from the fact that its index is right in the hunt with FS... and the spread between all of CS/DS/ES/FS is less than .6 seconds)

DS and ES are nearly the same, and yes, FS is right there, too. So, we certainly COULD combine the two classes without really breaking too many hearts. But, even in SCCA, classes like FS, ESP and CP have always been almost exclusively "muscle car" classes. I think they do that for a reason. It would be just as easy for them to lump those cars in with another class, too. But, they don't... because they're different. The differences may not always present themselves, but our S4 cars are generally better handling cars than the S3 cars, and will do better on a tight and "technical" course. And our S3 cars will generally be significantly faster accelerating cars than the S4 cars... which will show on any course with significant straights. I'm still not saying I'm for or against combining them, just presenting information.

And then there's lowly GS/HS, our S5 class. They're a pretty long ways from any of the other classes, and I wouldn't want to give folks in those cars any LESS incentive to compete than they already have, so I don't want to combine S5 upward.

Soooo... combine S3/S4? Maybe. I also see just as much reason to consider splitting S1 if anyone wants to investigate what the split of SS/AS/BS is in our current mix of competitors. In theory, the SS guys should just walk on the S1 class, but I'm not sure how many of them show up.

[Jamie]

Or...since the SCCA is adopting a new "street tire-based "stock" ruleset for 2014, with an implied classing shuffle at the end of that season, maybe wait and see what comes out of that. They'll have to have it figured out by the end of our next season, in order to implement it the following January (2015). Of course, that means no annual tinkering with the FAST classes this year -- some may go through withdrawal -- but I haven't heard or seen any competitors complaining.

[Jeremy]

I just think we need to make sure the double format stays as close to normal event conditions as possible.

I don't think that is possible when you have the same class running in 2 separate events.

We should go back to normal events at SPC where entry limits aren't a restriction.
I think the split events are nice to let people have the day off, but they waste a lot of time.

With a normal event you don't have to switch workers for drivers and vice versa.
You don't have to break for lunch as everyone will naturally have either heat 2 or 3 off.
You don't have to have separate registrations, tech, course walks, driver's meetings, etc.

[Loren]

Jamie, leaving things alone for the next season might be the way to go. The only reason I started this thread was just to see if anyone felt changes were needed. If I didn't start the dialogue, and people came up to me in August with "I'd like to propose a change for the next season", it's too late. At least no one can say we never discussed it!

Jeremy, as I mentioned before, this is off-topic for this thread, so this is all I'm going to say about it:
I've heard far more "I love the split event format" than "I really wish we'd go back to the single event format". And the numbers speak for themselves.