Da Groj

Hi all. I am new to Fast and the forum. I'll start with a confession. I signed up for my first autocross next weekend at Brooksville, and it isn't yours

I wish I had found you folks first. Your site has helped me a lot as to what to expect at the event and answered some of my questions about tech. I am doing next weekend with Central Florida Region SCCA and DLB Racing. I know you aren't them. I am having a horrible time finding answers to my questions on their website though. As they say, live and learn. I'll try to do some events with you folks in the future.

Ok, back to my questions, knowing that you won't necessarily have definitive answers because you aren't them....

I have a 1973 MG Midget. I made my own suspension for it, 4 link rear and coil overs on all 4 corners instead of the lever shocks and leaf spring rear it had. I also put a motorcycle engine/trans in place of the stock stuff. It is turbocharged. I have oversized wheels with 100 treadwear tires on them. I am registered for 'novice race tire' class. When I am not novice, what class, if any, would this car qualify for?

I found some info on what they tech but still have questions. My rear shocks are exposed to the passenger compartment. Is that acceptable or do I need a sheet metal barrier? If securely attached, can I leave my fire extinguisher in the car? This car is a convertible. Do I need a roll bar or roll cage? I do not have a parking brake hooked up, is this an issue? The top of my pedal box is open to the engine compartment. Does this need to be sheet metaled in?

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide me.

Welcome, Ian!

CFRSCCA is a good group of guys. No shame in running with them if it's convenient for you. (DLB is just their event registration site, btw. We use one called MyAutoEvents.) They've been at it a lot longer than we have!

I'm not going to try to specifically answer your SCCA classing or safety questions, but I'll throw some basics and some common sense at you:

First, without getting into a deep discussion of all of the whys, your car is probably in one of the SCCA Modified classes. Probably D Mod, if I recall correctly. But, if all else fails, as long as it's safe, it can probably run in A Mod. Let them figure it out.

For FAST, you're in R1, our race tire class for "race cars". It falls there because it's on tires that don't meet our street tire requirements, and it's modified beyond our allowances for the standard Mod classes. If it weren't for all the cutting and welding, you could probably have run it in R2. And, if you opt to put street tires on it, you could run it in M0 (Open Modified Street Tire).

Being essentially a "constructed" car, for SCCA, you'll have to read through their Modified rules to see what their requirements and restrictions are. I suspect they will be very thorough... and they may very well redirect you to SCCA Club Racing prep rules for certain safety things. FAST has a few safety rules that would apply. But, we get so few cars like yours that we haven't bothered writing a bunch of specific rules. We'll just do a thorough inspection of your car and let you know if we see anything that warrants attention.

A couple requirements: (as per our insurance company)

• Any open-roofed car on non-DOT tires must have a roll bar.
• Any open-roofed car using seatbelts with more than one shoulder strap must have a roll bar.
• Any purpose-built race car must have a roll bar.
• No Nitrous Oxide bottles are allowed.

I'm sure your car fits in one or more of those categories, so a rollbar would be required. We don't have specific rules for a rollbar, but would recommend that you build it to SCCA specs. (while also looking at NASA specs, and maybe even NHRA specs... a minor change in design here or there can ensure that you are in compliance with ANY rules, as well as keeping you safe)

A parking brake isn't required, but it's a really good idea. You don't want your car rolling around the grid bumping into other cars! If you don't have one, keeping a couple blocks on-hand and being extra careful should suffice.

Things we'll be looking for beyond our standard safety checklist: (just off the top of my head)

• Complete firewall. If there's an engine fire, we don't want flames reaching YOU.
• Appearance and routing of fuel lines, brake lines, coolant lines, etc. Fuel lines and brake lines especially must be securely mounted and routed so that they are not near very hot parts, such as the exhaust. Any such lines in the cockpit must be fully metal-enclosed.
• Things that could rub that shouldn't. Everything from the lines mentioned above to tires and anything else that could become a wear problem if allowed to rub against whatever it's rubbing against.
• Driver safety. Seat mounting, seatbelt condition and mounting, roll bar height, protection from debris on course, etc.
• We don't require it, but for a car like yours, we highly recommend either a fire suit, or at least long sleeves and long pants of heavy cotton.
• General appearance. Does this car look like it's going to get around our course without killing the driver or injuring our course workers?

Yes, you can (and should) mount your extinguisher in the car. Needs to be a sturdy metal bracket very securely mounted to keep it from becoming a projectile.

All that being said... I'd really recommend that you come at least do an event or two in a more mundane car just to learn the basics of autocross. Most people find that overwhelming enough without the added excitement of an unpredictable custom-built race car. Also, our Novice School is November 1st. Highly recommended... and, again, would recommend doing it in a car that doesn't require you to think about the car so much so that you can "just drive". Even a rental car, if you don't have anything else in the stable.

Learn the basics of autocrossing first, then you'll be more ready to handle FrankenMidget!

Unfortunately, and I'm not expert, but I think your car would be E Mod in SCCA classing.

Loren,

Thanks for the response. I'll start with this. I want to drive my car that I built. I thought autocross would be fun, and would give me an opportunity to set up the chassis: I have ride height, spring rate, spring preload, compression damping, and rebound damping adjustments on all 4 corners as well as some options for adjusting the 4 link. I won't be going to an autocross in another vehicle. My time is limited and my hobbies are many. I want to spend my time allotted driving my car, not 'doing autocross'.

I would argue that my car is simply a modified production car vs. a constructed car for the safety equipment standards. I care little what class I run as I won't be there to compete against other drivers. Assign me to the fastest class and let me win the last place award

Loren wrote:A couple requirements: (as per our insurance company)

• Any open-roofed car on non-DOT tires must have a roll bar.
• Any open-roofed car using seatbelts with more than one shoulder strap must have a roll bar.
• Any purpose-built race car must have a roll bar.
• No Nitrous Oxide bottles are allowed.

My tires are DOT approved, Toyo Proxes R888.
I will uninstall the 4 point harness and just run a lap belt. That is all that came from the factory in my 1973 Midget.
This is a modified production car, not a purpose built race car.

Loren wrote:A parking brake isn't required, but it's a really good idea. You don't want your car rolling around the grid bumping into other cars! If you don't have one, keeping a couple blocks on-hand and being extra careful should suffice.

The parking brake is on the to do list. I just haven't gotten there yet.

Loren wrote: Things we'll be looking for beyond our standard safety checklist: (just off the top of my head)

• Complete firewall. If there's an engine fire, we don't want flames reaching YOU.
• Appearance and routing of fuel lines, brake lines, coolant lines, etc. Fuel lines and brake lines especially must be securely mounted and routed so that they are not near very hot parts, such as the exhaust. Any such lines in the cockpit must be fully metal-enclosed.
• Things that could rub that shouldn't. Everything from the lines mentioned above to tires and anything else that could become a wear problem if allowed to rub against whatever it's rubbing against.
• Driver safety. Seat mounting, seatbelt condition and mounting, roll bar height, protection from debris on course, etc.
• We don't require it, but for a car like yours, we highly recommend either a fire suit, or at least long sleeves and long pants of heavy cotton.
• General appearance. Does this car look like it's going to get around our course without killing the driver or injuring our course workers?

I will complete the firewall before I show up.
All fuel lines, brake lines, etc. are routed intelligently and well secured.
Seats are mounted solidly and all belts are new. I retained the stock windshield.
The car looks safe, but not pretty. The bodywork/paintjob is still pending

Again, thank you for the response. I know you aren't trying to argue with me, only provide info. I am trying to illustrate my desires: to run my car for some fun. I don't want to show up and be turned away. I don't intend to do a lot of autocross, just an occasional one for fun. If it won't be possible with the current configuration of my car, I will find something else to do with my time, like rent out Roebling Road Raceway for a day and doing a trackday!

I am getting the feeling by your response that the don't ask, don't tell policy will be best with the tech inspection.

For your entertainment, a video and a couple of pics.



On the dyno getting tuned. 338 hp, 200 ft. lbs. of torque, and I figure 9though have yet to weigh it) about 1200 lbs wet weight.



Short drive video. I let off as soon as the turbo starts to spool. Click pic for video.

Totally understandable that you want to drive the car that you built. I was just trying to ease your learning curve. I'm sure you'll have fun.

ianjoub wrote:My tires are DOT approved, Toyo Proxes R888.
I will uninstall the 4 point harness and just run a lap belt. That is all that came from the factory in my 1973 Midget.
This is a modified production car, not a purpose built race car.

For what we're talking about right now, I'll buy that. I'd still recommend that you add installing a roll bar to your list of things to do, but as long as we're meeting the letter of our insurance guidelines, I'd let you run. (note that I can't speak for SCCA... their rules may be different)

I will complete the firewall before I show up.

All fuel lines, brake lines, etc. are routed intelligently and well secured.
Seats are mounted solidly and all belts are new. I retained the stock windshield.
The car looks safe, but not pretty. The bodywork/paintjob is still pending

Sounds good. And looks good. The photos help a lot. (video wouldn't load)

Again, thank you for the response. I know you aren't trying to argue with me, only provide info. I am trying to illustrate my desires: to run my car for some fun. I don't want to show up and be turned away. I don't intend to do a lot of autocross, just an occasional one for fun.

I am getting the feeling by your response that the don't ask, don't tell policy will be best with the tech inspection.

Not really. Any car that's older than about 20 years is going to get extra scrutiny. Add an obvious engine swap and extreme suspension mods, and we'll have to look at it that much closer. But, based on the photos, I don't think you'll have anything to worry about, as long as the obvious things like a firewall, battery tie-down, and just general "togetherness" are taken care of. Looks like a solid project with a lot of attention to detail.

I'll second the advice on the roll bar. I may be mistaken, but I believe you are going to need it anyway if you do take it to a track. It will also help stiffen the chassis. Also, that 4 point harness is not only safer, but will keep you better planted in the seat. You will want that.

Cool project BTW

Definitely don't pay attention to those dissing SCCA...plenty of "them" are "us".

For competition, the local SCCA region just lumps all the novices into one class, regardless of where the car would actually fall. But as a former SCCA Solo safety steward, I think you may run into trouble without a roll bar. Basically, the rules say all open-top Prepared and Modified category cars (yours is definitely Modified) must have a roll bar or cage (2014 SCCA National Solo Rules, Sec 3.3.2). Moreover, the region cannot waive that section...so it's not a matter of whether they sympathize or not, it's a matter of them keeping their event sanction and insurance.

You can look up the SCCA rulebook at http://www.scca.com/assets/2014%20Solo% ... 0links.pdf. Or send a note to solo@cfrscca.org with your question, and one of the region officials should get back to you. Unfortunately, I'm out of town this weekend, otherwise I'd be at both events...looking forward to seeing the car sometime in the future.

Thank you for the additional information. I plan a roll bar. I have all the material at the shop and it is already bent into shape. I am just not sure if I will have time to weld it in before next weekend.

AScoda wrote:Cool project BTW

Thank you. I am sure trying to make this autocross is a little premature, but I have been almost 4 years (Jan 1) building this thing. I am anxious to drive it a bit!

As another aside .... I have a 3" straight pipe for an exhaust. The turbo quiets is down a bunch... You can hear the car in the video. I do not think it is obnoxious, and I do not like loud exhaust systems. Could this be another problem for me?

A 4 year saga, 700 post build thread.... I hope I am not hanging myself with this.

WARNING **** If you are a tech inspector, this link is just heresay

http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?3,1645751

What's your background, Ian? Clearly, you've got a lot of fabrication experience and practical understanding of what you're doing. Are you a race car builder? Street rod builder? Race experience of any kind? Inquiring minds want to know...

I wish I had time to read all of that thread.

Great project! I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.

Loren wrote:What's your background, Ian? Clearly, you've got a lot of fabrication experience and practical understanding of what you're doing. Are you a race car builder? Street rod builder? Race experience of any kind? Inquiring minds want to know...

I wish I had time to read all of that thread.

I own an auto repair shop in Homosassa. Mo's Auto on US19.

I have no fabrication experience. I decided I needed to know how to weld and wanted a project of some sort. I know very little about driving cars. I didn't own one until 22 years old. I am a safe and competent driver on the street, 44 years old.

I have ridden and raced motorcycles my whole life. I know about racing . I used to race 'crotch rockets' throughout the southeast at various roadrace tracks. I currently race enduros and hare scrambles on my dirtbikes with FTR (Florida Trail Riders).

I am just trying to have fun with my new project. I figured I would try a few: autocrosses, drifting events, drag race test and tune nights, roadrace tracks, and maybe even hang out at a couple of car meets at various locations.

This car is a toy. I will use it in fair weather. If I go more than 20 miles from the house, it will be in a trailer. If it breaks, I will push it into a corner until I have time for it again.

You're going to like autocross.

It's been my experience that good motorcycle racers have a set of skills that translates very well to autocross. The things that you have to know and do in motorcycle racing because your LIFE depends on it are exactly the same things that will get you through an autocross course quickly.

Cool Spridget. Better add a passenger seat to the list, 'cause every instructor in the club is going to want to go for a ride!

SCCA rules are rather voluminous, especially in the mod classes. You can read for yourself for the details. DM and EM specifically exclude all non automobile motors (ie motorcycle, snowmobile, etc) Your body chassis doesn't meet the stringent requirements of BM, CM, and FM which are based on the SCCA road racing rules. Unfortunately that only leaves AM for your car.
At the local level it probably doesn't really matter since you are out for a fun time and it is not likely that there would be another AM car.

Also, you won't be able to run an open top car without a roll bar/cage. Even if you could why would you?

garage west wrote:Cool Spridget. Better add a passenger seat to the list, 'cause every instructor in the club is going to want to go for a ride!

I have a passenger seat. It is just not installed in that pic.