Da Groj

After some discussion, it was decided to NOT do this! The FAST Treadwear limit will stay at 140.

Official Announcement:

The minimum treadwear for FAST Street Tire classes (all Stock and Modified category classes) beginning with the 2015-16 Season that starts in September 2015 will change from 140 to 200.

So, if you're buying tires that you expect to last that long, you might want to bear that in mind.

Thanks for the very timely heads up!

Yeah, seemed like a good idea.

I am all set for next season

Those tires are 2.5 years old, anyway.

Well, one good thing about my tires. Stuff like this is not one of my problems.

Loren wrote:Those tires are 2.5 years old, anyway.

At that pace these will last me another 4 years.
Any grandfather clause for people that don't have money to buy tires every six months?

A new set of tires will probably cost me more than a used miata.

It's okay to use the Hankook method of tread wear indication.

I'm getting a branding iron made with a 3D printer.

We have been discussing a grandfather clause. I think there needs to be one, but it needs to be worded in such a way that it can't be easily abused.

Suggestions?

They simply run in one higher class for one additional season. (Or in Jeremy's case 2.5 years since his tires are all ready sun baked adobe.) Whatever +class they start in they have to stay in even if they get 200+ tires later when the old ones die.

That's one possible solution.

Here's the thing: my personal conspiracy theory is that tires are getting better PERIOD. This is independent of their Treadwear rating (which is made-up BS, anyway). So, in reality, the 140 treadwear tires of last year really aren't any grippier than 200 treadwear tires of this year. Between the fact that tires are just getting better (able to grip better AND wear longer), and the fact that the tire manufacturers who make tires that are popular for autocross are well aware of "the game" and just branding their new tires as "200", it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the latest crop of "200" TW tires to be GRIPPIER than last year's "140".

And then when you consider actual tire aging... any tire that's 2 years out of the mold is NOT as grippy as one that's 6 months out of the mold. I've experienced this first hand by buying a set of "old stock" tires from the Tire Rack. I know those guys properly store their tires in a temperature-controlled warehouse... and yet, a set of 2-year-old tires that I bought were clearly NOT up to par. If they've been mounted on wheels and sitting on your car or in your garage, they're not going to be any better than that.

So, with that in mind... maybe some sort of tire date-of-manufacture exclusion FOR ONE YEAR ONLY (we don't want to play this game forever) might be the way to go.

What I'm saying in a nutshell is that the guy who shows up on 2-year-old 140's is likely going to get his ass handed to him by the guy on the brand new flavor-of-the-month "200" tire. (and, of course, we know that there are hot-shoes out there who will come out with 300 TW tires and whoop up on you, anyway)

Loren wrote:Treadwear rating (which is made-up BS, anyway). So, in reality, the 140 treadwear tires of last year really aren't any grippier than 200 treadwear tires of this year. Between the fact that tires are just getting better (able to grip better AND wear longer), and the fact that the tire manufacturers who make tires that are popular for autocross are well aware of "the game" and just branding their new tires as "200", it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect the latest crop of "200" TW tires to be GRIPPIER than last year's "140".

That's why I was wondering why we are even bothering with this rule ? A 140 street tire probably isn't going to be any "gripier" (is that a word ?) than 200 street tire from the same manufacturer. For example, you could probably say a 200 treadwear Hankook will have more grip than a 140 treadwear Falken, so why even bother with treadwear numbers ?

Mainly just trying to keep in sync with the SCCA rules and not have people (who are preparing to SCCA rules) feel that they are being outgunned by tires. In the future, once all the dust settles, a NEW 140 tire might be grippier than a NEW 200 tire.

I'm just saying that I don't think an OLD 140 tire is grippier than a NEW 200 right now.

Use my "branding" iron. I will deep fry you soon on 300 rated French tires and "smell good" while doing it soon.

The Mayor

Loren wrote: What I'm saying in a nutshell is that the guy who shows up on 2-year-old 140's is likely going to get his ass handed to him by the guy on the brand new flavor-of-the-month "200" tire. (and, of course, we know that there are hot-shoes out there who will come out with 300 TW tires and whoop up on you, anyway)

MOST GUYS WHO SHOW UP ARE "likely" TGTAHT Them. It's up to the competitor to "narc out" the offenders and forget it. Just like those who accidentally put themselves in the wrong class.

I think basing it on a somewhat arbitrary treadwear number is kind of silly. I know that is what the SCCA does, but we are not the SCCA and because of that we don't have to follow there silly rules. The lines are a bit blurrier now than they were 15 years ago, however Tire Rack has categories that should suffice in defining "race" and "street" tires. Basically all tires that aren't listed by Tire Rack as "Track & Competition DOT" are legal in "street" tire and those that are listed are "race" tires. This is fairly obvious for the most part, we all know that Hoosier A/R 6/7, Kumho V700/710, BFG R1, Hankook Z214, Toyo R 888/A1/R are race tires and Hankook RS3s, Dunlop ZII, BFG Rivals, Bridgestone RE-11, Kumho XS, etc, etc are street tires, we don't need a treadwear number to tell us this. So, basically just a list of tire models that are "race" tires and everything else is allowed in "street" tire. Sure there may be some oddball tire that isn't sold by the Tire Rack that someone might show up on that might then be an issue, but this should be a pretty rare occurrence and can be handled by competitor protest and a decision can be made at that point by the officers. Any SCCA types who have a problem with someone running and old 140TW RS3 in FAST street tire class can just get over themselves.

Yeah. I could lean in that direction.

(same sort of thing I suggested when we were discussing an "all season tire" class)

lddavis91 wrote:I think basing it on a somewhat arbitrary treadwear number is kind of silly. I know that is what the SCCA does, but we are not the SCCA and because of that we don't have to follow there silly rules. The lines are a bit blurrier now than they were 15 years ago, however Tire Rack has categories that should suffice in defining "race" and "street" tires. Basically all tires that aren't listed by Tire Rack as "Track & Competition DOT" are legal in "street" tire and those that are listed are "race" tires. This is fairly obvious for the most part, we all know that Hoosier A/R 6/7, Kumho V700/710, BFG R1, Hankook Z214, Toyo R 888/A1/R are race tires and Hankook RS3s, Dunlop ZII, BFG Rivals, Bridgestone RE-11, Kumho XS, etc, etc are street tires, we don't need a treadwear number to tell us this. So, basically just a list of tire models that are "race" tires and everything else is allowed in "street" tire. Sure there may be some oddball tire that isn't sold by the Tire Rack that someone might show up on that might then be an issue, but this should be a pretty rare occurrence and can be handled by competitor protest and a decision can be made at that point by the officers. Any SCCA types who have a problem with someone running and old 140TW RS3 in FAST street tire class can just get over themselves.

Well said.

Based on what I have been reading it would appear that the new 200's are just the old 140's with the number changed. There is actually no standardization, and the tire companies are allowed to police themselves.

impalanut wrote:There is actually no standardization, and the tire companies are allowed to police themselves.

Yeah, that's always been the case.