Da Groj

EDIT: This topic was split from the "red flag after DNF" topic because... well, it's a different topic. And there's clearly a mess going on with the fields surrounding the runway right now.

puncturina wrote:I would like to know what the rule is when a car goes completely off the runway and then comes back on before the next cone and is still technically on course. Does going off the runway constitute an off course?

We've never had a "grass = DNF" rule.

If we were to have such a rule, it would be because we were REALLY trying to discourage people from going in the grass (that's usually because someone is concerned for preserving the grass, not the case at Brooksville). In that case, the rule wouldn't be DNF, it would be more like "if you touch grass more than once in an event, you are done for the day".

But, we have no such rule at this time.

Loren wrote:we were REALLY trying to discourage people from going in the grass (that's usually because someone is concerned for preserving the grass, not the case at Brooksville).

I bet the farmer that makes a living growing hay there would disagree. I have always called people on the grass off course out of habit. My understanding was that grass was ALWAYS off course unless you have a skinny track like Gainesville, in which we would allow 1 tire in the grass without penalty.

There is no reason to be in the grass at Brooksville and since you are now saying that this is allowed, if I ever go in the grass, I will drop the clutch and do a massive burnout in the grass trying to get back on the pavement as soon as possible dragging dirt all over the racing line, since my run is still good.

Jeremy wrote:There is no reason to be in the grass at Brooksville.

There is no more "grass" @ Brooksville. Any off concrete excursions will result in devastion of your vehicle.

This A-hole farmer has plowed both sides of the concrete within 2-3ft and even plowed around both sides of the portajohns.

The East side after the monsoon is slightly grassy with a 12-18" drop off.

The West side after plowing after the Monsoon is sandy with a plow kerf which will remove your manhood while still inside the car. AND you cannot get to the portajohns without getting dirt on your racing shoes and shins.

I was there today and it was twice as "ugly" as the last time when only one side was ruined.

How much is a bale of hay worth? I'll pay the farmer a-hole(s) $20 to leave 20ft of grass and "no drop off".

The Mayor

Jeremy wrote:There is no reason to be in the grass at Brooksville

Agreed.

and since you are now saying that this is allowed, if I ever go in the grass, I will drop the clutch and do a massive burnout in the grass trying to get back on the pavement as soon as possible dragging dirt all over the racing line, since my run is still good.

Yeah. Because that makes sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bg2B3KK9GI

Scope out the plowed crap on both sides of the runway.

BTW I finished second after Nils.

There's worse things.

Doug

twistedwankel wrote:There is no more "grass" @ Brooksville. Any off concrete excursions will result in devastion of your vehicle.

Pretty much. Loren's co-driver will have a story to tell from today. As we warned at last event's drivers meeting, soft plowed earth grabs and holds a car pretty tight, whether it wants to stop or not. Doubtful anyone without tracks be leaving rooster tails out there.

Oh...Doug's soundtrack is much nicer than mine, if a bit slower.

I would think 2 wheels in Grass = DNF. The run would not be salvageable. I think it would be safest for everyone if a driver never thinks it's a rallycross and goes like stig trying to get back on the tarmac. I wouldn't think anyone would be that crazy but you never know.

Jamie wrote:

twistedwankel wrote:There is no more "grass" @ Brooksville. Any off concrete excursions will result in devastion of your vehicle.

Pretty much. Loren's co-driver will have a story to tell from today. As we warned at last event's drivers meeting, soft plowed earth grabs and holds a car pretty tight, whether it wants to stop or not. Doubtful anyone without tracks be leaving rooster tails out there.

Oh...Doug's soundtrack is much nicer than mine, if a bit slower.

Jamie was on fire today finishing 9th Pax while I finished a motley 17th.

Duly noted: The 1,2,3 finish of BS were Pax 16,17,18. I really think that's a validation of the "Classing System" for SCCA.

Discount Dat #12 in BS and that "Jamie" in #9 in motley ES. Oh Baby.

You know that Jamie actually is still running his same motor with new pulleys right? SHIT. I thought he was .060 over with a NASCAR Miata...SHIT there will be one eventally as soon as they get the air foils sorted.

Jamie kicks ass.

You guys are picking nits about shit that doesn't matter.

There may be places and situations (like maybe the exit of a turn-around) where touching one or two wheels in the grass in a place where there's no drop-off might be recoverable. But, generally speaking, if you hit grass at Brooksville, it doesn't matter if we call your run a DNF or not. Your time is going to SUCK no matter how quickly you scramble to get back to the pavement. So, why are we even having this discussion?

I mean, seriously. Do we automatically call a spin a DNF? Same thing. After a spin, your run is DONE. There is no recovering the time lost from a spin. But, we don't bother calling it a DNF because the time speaks for itself.

Until/unless the club has some other reason for keeping you out of the grass... either a site-owner that says "don't drive on the grass" or some safety issue (which we might be getting close to if conditions don't improve at Brooksville)... we don't need to officially say that grass = DNF. And, again... if we had some reason to require it, the penalty would be more harsh than a DNF because the time penalty for going off into the grass is already equivalent to a DNF.

IF we decide that we need to ensure that no driver goes into the grass for safety reasons, we'll let you know. The rule will be a warning the first time, and showing you to the gate the second time. Again, we DO NOT have this rule at this time. But, that's the kind of rule that would make sense if our goal was to absolutely keep you out of the grass.

Jamie wrote:

twistedwankel wrote:There is no more "grass" @ Brooksville. Any off concrete excursions will result in devastion of your vehicle.

Pretty much. Loren's co-driver will have a story to tell from today. As we warned at last event's drivers meeting, soft plowed earth grabs and holds a car pretty tight, whether it wants to stop or not.

I suppose when one signs a "waiver" one accepts the consequence no matter what it is.

The farmers are encroaching on sensibility is all. I like my car the way it is and drive according to my limits. I'd really like to explore the car's limits.

We're working on a redesign of the Jan 31 course that will keep us way off of the left side. I don't like that berm or the hay bales!

We'll have to take inventory of the new landscape this weekend and see what our options are for the near future.

If you go in the grass. Slowly get back on the pavement and avoid the racing line until you are sure your car functions properly, and to make sure that you don't drop any dirt on the racing line. Unfortunately this is going to mean you will go off course once again. But don't worry, I already called you off course the first time.

Jeremy... the above is a MUCH, much more useful post than the passive-aggressive crap you posted a while ago.

It actually makes sense.

Of course, it overlooks the fact that almost anytime a car goes into the grass, the course is red-flagged. So, you wouldn't be finishing your run at-speed, anyway. Calling the run a DNF or not is still just semantics at that point.

But, still... telling people to stay off the racing line after visiting the dirt is a good idea. We're revising the driver's meeting script right now. Will add that.

I have also seen car tires debeaded and deflating a bunch of times in the grass at Brooksville. Dude rolls back into the pits and his wheels look like they are wearing a hula skirt.

Yes, that does happen with sideways grass action. Any car that hits the grass needs to be looked at closely for tire and wheel issues, as well as loose or broken parts hanging under the car.

Really, DNF or not, any car that sees more than 2 wheels off should simply be red-flagged and limped back to grid for inspection. That's usually what happens, anyway. We just never stated it as "policy".

When we ran the enduro-cross this year, there was a turn-around near the timing trailer. I watched many cars put 2 off...especially in the wet sessions. If I recall, most workers were calling this as a "DNF", even though there was not much harm done.

I would go with the rule of "2 or more off is DNF". SCCA calls it the same at Gainesville, too ( I know... FAST is not SCCA). It really needs to be this way due to safety and keeping the course clean.

Sarah got pics of a couple off's at Gainesville, it ended with over 5 min delays in clean up every time.

Also, we've all seen/heard of the horror stories when people come back on the runway at speed.

puncturina wrote:IMHO, it seems to me that your run ends when a) you cross the finish, b) you go off course c) your car is disabled so you are unable to finish.
If a red flag happens after any one of those events, you don't get a rerun. You only get a rerun if you are red-flagged and are unable to complete the course at full speed because none of the three conditions have been met.

Whatever is decided, I would like to know what the rule is when a car goes completely off the runway and then comes back on before the next cone and is still technically on course. Does going off the runway constitute an off course? Yes, I know the time is shot anyway, but I don't know if that is off course. That happened at the last event, and we did not mark it as a DNF.

There used to be a two tires off allowed rule with some club. Might have been FAST?

Doug

twistedwankel wrote:There used to be a two tires off allowed rule with some club. Might have been FAST?

Don't think we've had such a rule.

I was told once upon a time that two wheels off = off course. That's why I was asking.