Da Groj

It was a brilliant day for autocrossing.

Loren posted the results before we even left the Airport. How amazing is that!!

So if you looked, a lot of you knew all the results before the participants did unless they received a sticker.

Surprise.... Elliott Harvey was FTD but he really had to work for it. Even with Hoosiers the line took time to form a groove.

The brand new pavement is being broken in now. Nothing surprising.

It reminded me of my old trips to Topeka, KS with the wind blowing stinging sand on my legs. Not sure if I got more sunburn or windburn?

NOT listed on the results are my experimental young "not so novice" drivers. Lucky for me none of them kicked my butt limiting myself to two runs was a challenge to me for sure. In raw time that new alien Philip got a 55.159 +1 which killed it for him. Philip has developed a unique driving style that works for him but isn't a 100% reliable. It will become fully endorsed by the tire companies soon as it will double their income. Rather than use cheapo brakes in a straight line he just turns the front wheels full throttle to scrub speed until it slows the car via friction and heat enough to actually turn. It seems to work for him at least at the airport and he did win his normal class too.

Everyone improved in only two runs. That is very impressive. All 4 showed me an almost fearless attack strategy which didn't always work for them. Andrew is a "natural" with particularly smooth driving style and he was very happy to beat himself with my properly setup more powerful RWD car. He was also clean both of his runs!! He immediately was thinking of ways he could go faster on that course. That is the sign of a high competitor.

Stephen hasn't had a working car for a couple months so he co-drove my car and to his credit he greatly improved his times finishing well up into S2 overcoming cone issues and course shock. Hey it could be a sea of cones without 100% focus well in advance. He needs only one car to focus on driving.

Nathan has mad skills and great reflexes but has to learn to left foot brake so he can "never lift" and avoid future loops. That is his only issue and once he learns that he could well be the thumper of that "illegal 1LE" everyone keeps talking about. He let me drive his G8 car and it is a great machine. Broadcasts everything very well. Hard to imagine it weighs very close to 2 tons. I had no idea it is an auto as he drives it so very well. He did beat me in his own car

I had a full load challenge first run this morning. The now famous Brian Kollar put down a fantastic clean time on cold tires with 700lbs of carsick sorta newbies to a 22nd place overall. Amazing.

Then Frickin' Drew on warm tires went out with the same bunch of passengers and put down a 15th place finish. Holy crap. It was along time before anyone beat those two guys times early this morning in the 50F weather.

That is so much fun to ride along with those guys.

At the end of the day Loren took his last run in my car on cooled tires and "some sand" on the wheels and beat me by a few tenths. Good job.

Not to be out done F'Drew on warm sand free wheels went out and bettered his loaded morning run by 1.1 seconds for a flat 56.054 seconds. That's really fast actually. Loren was only a couple tenths off that when he beat me!!

Anyhow another GREAT Classic and if you missed it that's fine - your loss, because we all got a ton of fun unique runs.

The Mayor

Awesome summary! Sorry I missed it.

It was a GREAT DAY ! The weather couldn't have been better, one of the rare days when I was enjoying being in the sun and working the course.

Doug thanks so much for letting myself and all the others flog the Village Mazda ! I'd really like to spend a little more time in that car.

Driving the course was super fast, really liked the figure 8, very fast and good >55 second runs, 7 runs plus a ride in the Village Mazda, and yet the course felt short.

The morning group got the "green" surface, I'm sure a cool morning and cold tires didn't help, I found a couple greasy areas early on, but the race grove did get better as the session went on.

I forgot to add that I also enjoyed seeing a nice long 9 cone even slalom.

this was my favorite course so far. I wish a seat bracket failure hadn't ended my day on the third run. but trying to drive in a rocking chair is no fun. I think I'm finally getting the hang of this spyder. the last too events, there was more speed to be had, and I knew it . I hope to see more courses like this one.

Looking forward to seeing the results, particularly Ron Rice's time, wondering if "the crow that ate his donut", gave him bad luck.

I enjoyed the course, it was challenging and still having adjustment issues or just haven't been driving my integra as well as I could since I got the ZIISS and camber kit installed, starting to think I undertired myself and have less grip than my old superwide re11a (went down to a narrower, but taller tire). But I did take my a few months to get accumulated to my setup last year after I did the big maintenance, so more seat time it is!

Watching the video, I think I see places to improve upon, but really did struggle with the lack of traction in the figure 8 and my back end wanting to come around, like it was sliding through it so I think tire pressure adjustments were probably needed possibly less in the back. The turn around from the videos I took, it looks like I only did it smoothly once. I definetely need to find the sweet spot in tire pressures. I had them down on my old tires and it was just right for all brooksville courses.

Here is my video, I think you could see in figure 8 how I had to correct myself in some areas, seemed slow in the slalom also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnjxxbtba04

I like seeing the Figure 8's and a lot of those elements that SPC used to have, haven't done them in a long time and would love to see more of it at brooksville. Had me trying to remember how to do them from the novice school.

Thanks again for letting my drive the RX-8 Doug, you were right about the brakes and steering, it was a good transition from my Integra, in a way, despite being rwd, felt easy to drive fast. It was about time I drove a rwd car that wasn't going to kill you

aw614 wrote:I enjoyed the course, it was challenging and still having adjustment issues or just haven't been driving my integra as well as I could since I got the ZIISS and camber kit installed, starting to think I undertired myself and have less grip than my old superwide re11a (went down to a narrower, but taller tire). But I did take my a few months to get accumulated to my setup last year after I did the big maintenance, so more seat time it is!

Watching the video, I think I see places to improve upon, but really did struggle with the lack of traction in the figure 8 and my back end wanting to come around, like it was sliding through it so I think tire pressure adjustments were probably needed possibly less in the back. The turn around from the videos I took, it looks like I only did it smoothly once. I definetely need to find the sweet spot in tire pressures. I had them down on my old tires and it was just right for all brooksville courses.

Here is my video, I think you could see in figure 8 how I had to correct myself in some areas, seemed slow in the slalom also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnjxxbtba04

I like seeing the Figure 8's and a lot of those elements that SPC used to have, haven't done them in a long time and would love to see more of it at brooksville. Had me trying to remember how to do them from the novice school.

Thanks again for letting my drive the RX-8 Doug, you were right about the brakes and steering, it was a good transition from my Integra, in a way, despite being rwd, felt easy to drive fast. It was about time I drove a rwd car that wasn't going to kill you

your inside rear tire would completely leave the ground in corners. could be part of your grip issue.

Pictures: As with all the pictures I post here, feel free to use them if you like them. I had spotters this time ( thanks guys! ) so I got a few more different angles.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/shei3fagbiuq ... 3PLca?dl=0

First I need to thank Doug for sharing his car with us! It was so odd to actually have grip for a few runs! I really wish didn't cone my run. I just underestimated the cars width Just having too much fun I guess Still so much fun to actually go "fast" at a FAST event. I have no clue how much time was left on track ( a second, two? ) but I feel I wasn't giving too much up. This helped temper my fear that when I get good tires for my car I will still drive like I have all-seasons on.

This was my favorite course so far! Faster than I expected ( even in my car ) and so much fun. I finally have a 1st place sticker for a class that had more than 1 car in it If I hadn't been spooked after my trip to the beach I think I could have hit a clean high 57.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QIzKH9IO_k

As Doug mentioned, I'm now able to post Results to the website remotely. In the future, I'll be posting preliminary MORNING results around noon for championship events, and I'll be posting final results for all events at the end of the day before we shut down the computer. No more waiting for event results. Cool, huh?

Doug also mentioned pretty much everything else. So, "what he said". Thanks, Doug! And thanks for letting me get beat by Drew in your car again. Always a good time.

Here's Todd Kaley's street tire FTD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFn4VgxP_ZU

Fun fact that I just noticed from watching this video again: Todd could have clearly been faster. Watch his speed in the first half of the figure-8. Then watch his speed in the second half. If he'd matched the speed he was capable of in the second half, he'd have both been faster through that turn AND had more entry speed into the final straight!

aw614 wrote: It was about time I drove a rwd car that wasn't going to kill you

I don't know man, that thing tried to kill me twice...

Nah, but seriously, what awesome day!
Doug thanks for the opportunity, I've only ever raced/driven at the limit my G8, and that started with FAST, so it was really enlightening to drive something totally different at and passed the limit.
Left foot braking you say? I started practicing on the way home...

Left foot braking...I need to start practicing, I can't seem to get coordinated with the third pedal, but could do it fine in the automatics I've owned/driven.

Professional_Slacker wrote: your inside rear tire would completely leave the ground in corners. could be part of your grip issue.

I always heard it is normal in a FWD car to lift the inside rear tire, how high was it off the ground? I could always use an LSD lol.

Always curious about it since most people have mentioned my Integra looks like it is close to lifting, but never fully off the ground. Nothing crazy like an old mk1 or mk2 VW.

The grip issue felt a lot like the dustiness of tampa bay downs for me, if that is the easiest comparison to have, where it was easy to over-rotate the car.

Inside rear wheel lift is common for FWD and not a problem normally.

Looking at the photos, the dust WAS a problem. Almost every photo shows dust being kicked up by tires.

I'll try to remember to watch your video later and see if I can figure out what's going on with your oversteer. My guess is that it's probably driver-induced somehow, as it's highly unlikely that your FWD car oversteers in steady-state turning. But, I haven't watched yet.

Carracer wrote:Pictures: As with all the pictures I post here, feel free to use them if you like them. I had spotters this time ( thanks guys! ) so I got a few more different angles.

Philip, thanks for the great photos Went through every one, very professional.

After watching everyone's videos, and then watching mine, I've learned one thing. I need to buy a GoPro.

My other runs, also featuring my trip to the brooksville beach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9HL0jdFs0g

Solar wrote:

Carracer wrote:Pictures: As with all the pictures I post here, feel free to use them if you like them. I had spotters this time ( thanks guys! ) so I got a few more different angles.

Philip, thanks for the great photos Went through every one, very professional.

After watching everyone's videos, and then watching mine, I've learned one thing. I need to buy a GoPro.

Thanks, I also enjoy watching others videos, it's cool to see what it looked like from other cars.

nathanwilliams617 wrote:

aw614 wrote: It was about time I drove a rwd car that wasn't going to kill you

I don't know man, that thing tried to kill me twice...

Nah, but seriously, what awesome day!
Doug thanks for the opportunity, I've only ever raced/driven at the limit my G8, and that started with FAST, so it was really enlightening to drive something totally different at and passed the limit.
Left foot braking you say? I started practicing on the way home...

I didn't know to tell you since I assumed your car was a stick the way you drive it....oops. Not until I got in your car did I see it was auto. Why important:

A stick shift with solid driveline the engine acts as a brake when you let up on the gas abruptly can lock up rear tires and cause a "loop". At any rate the engine does significant braking depending on "lift" off gas pedal.

The automatic with torque converter has no engine braking so you must use the actual brake MORE.

Cars don't kill people. Guns don't kill people. But looks can kill.

The left foot with practice you apply the brake before letting up on gas and press on gas before letting up on brake takes all the imbalance out of the suspension making for a super smooth transition. Simple. No loading and unloading of springs/shocks.

Doug

Loren wrote:.Thanks, Doug! And thanks for letting me get beat by Drew in your car again. Always a good time.

Simple. Next time let F' Drew go first!!

Carracer wrote: I have no clue how much time was left on track ( a second, two? ) but I feel I wasn't giving too much up. This helped temper my fear that when I get good tires for my car I will still drive like I have all-seasons on.

Summer racing tires are worth a lot of time over AS tires. R Hoosiers are worth a lot more time. Tires are the "easy" time line. The slow approach is shocks, suspension wear components, alignment and tons of seat time. I ran a set of hardass V Goodyear Gatorbacks for over 4 years when I started doing this before I learned how much speed was actually in them. I was old when I started so slow learner? When I finally got a set of R tires that are really close to today's ST 140-200 wear tires they equated to an instant 4-5 second improvement. A new set of Koni type shocks, alignment and bushings on full stiff another 2 seconds on the same bone stock car. It ends where you say it ends. I'm happy when I actually beat a couple H Stock guys times!! With my Vette.

I think I can speak for everyone today and we "all" left some time on that course. I say that of nearly every course for the most part no matter how many runs. If I can get two or more clean runs within a tenth or two I feel confident I have achieved the limit.

Philip, no Miata or RX8 is a slow car....ever. Unless one simply chooses to drive it that way.

Doug

Reminds me of Oklahoma Region SCCA's slogan that was printed on the front of their monthly newsletter (back when clubs had monthly newsletters) that read: "Every car is a sports car... sometimes."

aw614 wrote:Watching the video, I think I see places to improve upon, but really did struggle with the lack of traction in the figure 8 and my back end wanting to come around, like it was sliding through it so I think tire pressure adjustments were probably needed possibly less in the back.

Okay, finally watched. Seems a little too washed out to really get a good read on the slalom. (and I'm tired and grumpy and just didn't feel like watching it again) What I saw in the turn-around and even more in the figure 8 wasn't oversteer anywhere, but pure understeer, and driver induced. I'll try to explain, and maybe others can chime in.

What it looks like you're doing is just IMMEDIATELY asking too much of your front tires. You're turning in QUICK (which is good) and at the same time TOO MUCH (which is bad). The figure-8 is the best example. You immediately dial in about 1/4-1/2 turn too much steering and simply overpower the front tires. They start screaming bloody murder and you just keep holding that excessive angle through the turn. Another good example of a similar driver reaction is on the exit of the turn-around where you found yourself off-line and correcting at the end of the turn. YANK the wheel to full lock... sure, you get a reaction from the car, but for what you needed to accomplish, it was way too much input. (there's a secondary topic here of the line you SHOULD have been on to avoid that situation altogether, but I'm focusing on steering input right now)

It looks like a case of fairly typical "I commanded the car to turn, it didn't turn, so I'm going to command it SOME MORE". The good news is that this IS a very common problem, and it's very easy to overcome if you just make yourself think about it a little bit. Get in tune with what the front tires are doing. It's important with any car, but in a FWD car, it is everything! Turn in a little more progressively and FEEL. As soon as you feel the front tires letting loose, you need to fight the instinct that's saying "turn more", recognize that you CAN'T ask the front tires to do any more than that. If you're just on the very cusp of understeer, you can usually stay right there. If you're actually understeering, you need to either lessen your steering angle or ease off of the throttle. Ask LESS of the front tires until you feel them grab, then you can gently start asking more of them again.

I think if you'd been doing something like that in the figure-8, you'd have dialed in at least 1/4 turn less steering input, you'd have felt more in-control, and you'd have gotten around faster.

That's my take.

Loren wrote: Looking at the photos, the dust WAS a problem. Almost every photo shows dust being kicked up by tires.

The farmer has reduced the fun factor at Brooksville IMHO. Grip has been reduced due to sand blowing from the plowed fields and that has increased the number of people going into the field. The plowed furrows and soft sand also has greatly increased the risk of expensive damage to cars that do go off. We had at least 4 cars go off yesterday. From where I was standing it seemed all went off because they got late in the slalom. Autocross is supposed to be a sport where you can drive your car past the edge without fear of damage. I think we need a wider safety margin at Brooksville until the fields return to normal. I realize that you can't have a wide safety margin on the sides and run 2 cars safely past each other, much for the great brain to consider.

On another note, I loved the course. I think the 65 foot slalom was ideal, fast enough to be fun but solid second gear range. I liked the big sweeper that followed the slalom, the turn around and pretty much the rest of the ride back to the figure 8. If you were patient around the 8 you could add throttle early and get a nice fast straight line to the finish. The was a clue in the figure 8, the cone with the 2 pointers at station 2 was centered in the 8, if you kept your entry a little towards that cone you could get into and around the 8 without too much of a push.

Joe