Since my last time leading the Novice Walk in the AM I've been thinking about this... If we made the Novice Walk mandatory for first timers and novices (first 3 timers) and formalized the topics a bit, I think it would benefit everyone. More personal instruction for novices and we'd have them as a captive audience (no chatting or dicking around on phones...). And we could have a much shorter driver's meeting which would be great.
If we tried to cover everything in one shot I think it would end up being too long, so I was thinking we could split it up into two parts. Do a short class before the driver's meeting that's mandatory for noobs where we go over the safety and procedural stuff, then go out and do a course walk that everyone could go on. Both parts would be mandatory for anyone with less than 3 events under their belt.
I realize that by posting this I'm volunteering, so i would be happy to put together a preliminary curriculum/outline/talking points list for everyone's perusal.
Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Sounds good to me
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
You've managed a novice walk where the backmarkers -- including some noivices-- aren't bench racing or trying to figure out how they're going to do a mad downshift at the turnaround, yo? The morning group must be better behaved.jaball77 wrote:Since my last time leading the Novice Walk in the AM I've been thinking about this... If we made the Novice Walk mandatory for first timers and novices (first 3 timers) and formalized the topics a bit, I think it would benefit everyone. More personal instruction for novices and we'd have them as a captive audience (no chatting or dicking around on phones...). And we could have a much shorter driver's meeting which would be great.
If we tried to cover everything in one shot I think it would end up being too long, so I was thinking we could split it up into two parts. Do a short class before the driver's meeting that's mandatory for noobs where we go over the safety and procedural stuff, then go out and do a course walk that everyone could go on. Both parts would be mandatory for anyone with less than 3 events under their belt.
I realize that by posting this I'm volunteering, so i would be happy to put together a preliminary curriculum/outline/talking points list for everyone's perusal.
Joe Vance jumps to attention whenever I use the voice, so as long the folks who want to listen can hear, I put up with a certain amount of kibitzing in the back. More seriously, it's usually not the newbies working the course who need the procedural and safety reminders. Every event.
We could cover some of the basic stuff, like cone penalties, during the course walk. I usually do anyhow. (Do pointer cones count?) But thinking over the script, I'm hard pressed to remember too many things that even the more experienced folks don't need to hear again.-
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Jason, if you'd like to try to standardize the novice walk some, that would be just great! But do keep in mind, even if we shorten the drivers' meeting, if we have to allot more time for the novice walk, it's a wash...
And, shortening the drivers' meeting would be friggin' awesome. And thank you for the suggestion. But, as Jamie said, it's not necessarily noobs who need reminders. And some of it is simply "housekeeping" we need to do, or safety stuff we feel it's necessary to review. I don't have the script with me, and haven't committed it to memory (regardless of how many times I read it), but I do know:
- we ask about having signed the waiver; minor waiver; kids; pets - the insurance company holdeth the gold, and so maketh the rules (except pets, that's us and a liability we don't want).
- we mention our reputation, and ask folks to behave themselves. For their own good individually, but because if someone pisses off the airport (and it has happened and even though FAST wasn't at fault, we still had to answer to it) and they kick us out, well... so we feel that part is necessary.
- we mention coursework in much detail, to emphasize safety, and to reduce scoring errors. It's painful detail, yes, but as sure as I typed this, someone will need to wave a red flag, and have it rolled up on the stick. And if we omit cone counting, penalties and all that, mistakes will be made, the driver(s) will complain, timing will be annoyed and the entire atmosphere changes. Sure, we could save 2 minutes without the red flag/stick demonstration, or fire extinguisher demonstration, or flip-the-cone trick, but it'd be even more boring without that stuff. And sure as I typed this, someone won't know how to use a fire extinguisher... there's a lot of Murphy's law stuff at play here...
- We mention stuff about the runway. Every time. We've had at least once, a non-novice who had been to the drivers' meeting, try to drive back onto the concrete after a spin, and effectively ran right into a concrete wall. Even after we said be careful.
I could go on, but I think you get my point, that a great deal of what is mentioned at the meeting is either for sake of safety, or a smooth-running event. And most of it has been added because someone did something ridiculous, caused a problem of some sort, and we want to prevent it from recurring. You could argue that since folks do stuff regardless of hearing it at the meeting then why bother saying it at the meeting, but can you imagine how much more stuff would happen if we didn't?
The script has evolved over time, and the most recent edits actually shortened it. Loren and I simply read the script, to reduce rambling and spending even more time. But I can't think of anything we don't feel somehow obligated to mention. AAnnnd, at the end, there's ALMOST never questions, which means we're covering the points. If we cut the script, people WILL ask questions, there will inevitably be discussion, and now the meeting is taking even longer...
And, shortening the drivers' meeting would be friggin' awesome. And thank you for the suggestion. But, as Jamie said, it's not necessarily noobs who need reminders. And some of it is simply "housekeeping" we need to do, or safety stuff we feel it's necessary to review. I don't have the script with me, and haven't committed it to memory (regardless of how many times I read it), but I do know:
- we ask about having signed the waiver; minor waiver; kids; pets - the insurance company holdeth the gold, and so maketh the rules (except pets, that's us and a liability we don't want).
- we mention our reputation, and ask folks to behave themselves. For their own good individually, but because if someone pisses off the airport (and it has happened and even though FAST wasn't at fault, we still had to answer to it) and they kick us out, well... so we feel that part is necessary.
- we mention coursework in much detail, to emphasize safety, and to reduce scoring errors. It's painful detail, yes, but as sure as I typed this, someone will need to wave a red flag, and have it rolled up on the stick. And if we omit cone counting, penalties and all that, mistakes will be made, the driver(s) will complain, timing will be annoyed and the entire atmosphere changes. Sure, we could save 2 minutes without the red flag/stick demonstration, or fire extinguisher demonstration, or flip-the-cone trick, but it'd be even more boring without that stuff. And sure as I typed this, someone won't know how to use a fire extinguisher... there's a lot of Murphy's law stuff at play here...
- We mention stuff about the runway. Every time. We've had at least once, a non-novice who had been to the drivers' meeting, try to drive back onto the concrete after a spin, and effectively ran right into a concrete wall. Even after we said be careful.
I could go on, but I think you get my point, that a great deal of what is mentioned at the meeting is either for sake of safety, or a smooth-running event. And most of it has been added because someone did something ridiculous, caused a problem of some sort, and we want to prevent it from recurring. You could argue that since folks do stuff regardless of hearing it at the meeting then why bother saying it at the meeting, but can you imagine how much more stuff would happen if we didn't?
The script has evolved over time, and the most recent edits actually shortened it. Loren and I simply read the script, to reduce rambling and spending even more time. But I can't think of anything we don't feel somehow obligated to mention. AAnnnd, at the end, there's ALMOST never questions, which means we're covering the points. If we cut the script, people WILL ask questions, there will inevitably be discussion, and now the meeting is taking even longer...
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Yeah. Not to discourage suggestions, but I'm not feeling this one.
First, how the heck do you manage making sure that those people who "need" to be at the novice walk/instruction are actually there? We already tell all first-timers that the novice walk is mandatory. They SHOULD be there. But, if they're not, it's not the end of the world. They will still hear the important stuff at the driver's meeting, and they will still have an instructor available. (required if they are a first-timer)
But, as Steve mentioned, it's NOT just the folks who have done less than 3 events who need to hear all of the stuff we talk about at a driver's meeting. Classic events have taught us that. We used to require 3 events to do a Classic, and eventually learned that those people often do NOT have enough course experience to be able to effectively (or safely) work course solo (as they will often have to do at a Classic). That requirement is now up to 5 events, and I still question whether that's enough sometimes.
We all know that our 20-minute driver's meeting sucks, and it gets in the way of you getting started having fun. But, it's a necessary evil. It gets everyone on the same page and goes a long way toward making sure our events are consistent, safe and fun.
There was a time when we did driver's meetings the same way most clubs seem to. The event chairman would get up and talk about whatever he happened to remember to talk about. He'd ask the safety steward if he had anything to say, maybe ask his co-chairman. Ask for questions, and we'd be done in 5 minutes flat. And then... every time we turned around, someone was doing something wrong. Something simple. Something "obvious". But, WE NEVER TOLD THEM what to do. So, how would they know?
In a perfect world, every single entrant would have read every word of the event info, AND all of the info that we publish on the website. Some of them do. But, the vast majority do not. This is why we have a detailed driver's meeting. And why we require everyone to be there.
After you've been autocrossing With FAST for a year, maybe you could recite most of the driver's meeting from memory. Is that a bad thing??? And would you have committed all of those things to memory if you DIDN'T hear it at the start of every event?
Nah, not gonna change the driver's meeting. In fact, I've had people -- both newbs and experienced autocrossers, compliment us on our driver's meeting. It's good stuff, and we get through it as quickly as we can.
As for the novice walk, it needs to focus on "how to navigate the course" first, and then not so much "how to drive the course" as "how to not make gross errors in driving the course". We can't teach a full novice school's worth of stuff in a 15-minute novice walk! While we don't have a "standard" for it, every novice walk should begin with "what do the cones mean" (similar to what we talk about at the driver's meeting), explaining pointer cones, apex cones, slaloms and how to "read" the course. From there, you're hinting at "racing line" theory and giving them an idea of how to properly place their car at key points along the course, and where to LOOK when they drive the course.
Keep the novice walk simple. If we were to script it, the script would pretty much be the preceding paragraph. Rather than do that, I just try to pay attention the first few times I ask someone to do a novice walk to see if they're doing it right. Some people are very good at it (you and Jamie, for instance). Some people tend to gloss over the basics, or rush it... and I usually won't ask them to do novice walks if that is their style. We all have our strengths.
Remember, in addition to requiring first-timers to do a novice walk, we also require them to carry an instructor with them on at least their first run. THAT is where the more personalized instruction comes in.
First, how the heck do you manage making sure that those people who "need" to be at the novice walk/instruction are actually there? We already tell all first-timers that the novice walk is mandatory. They SHOULD be there. But, if they're not, it's not the end of the world. They will still hear the important stuff at the driver's meeting, and they will still have an instructor available. (required if they are a first-timer)
But, as Steve mentioned, it's NOT just the folks who have done less than 3 events who need to hear all of the stuff we talk about at a driver's meeting. Classic events have taught us that. We used to require 3 events to do a Classic, and eventually learned that those people often do NOT have enough course experience to be able to effectively (or safely) work course solo (as they will often have to do at a Classic). That requirement is now up to 5 events, and I still question whether that's enough sometimes.
We all know that our 20-minute driver's meeting sucks, and it gets in the way of you getting started having fun. But, it's a necessary evil. It gets everyone on the same page and goes a long way toward making sure our events are consistent, safe and fun.
There was a time when we did driver's meetings the same way most clubs seem to. The event chairman would get up and talk about whatever he happened to remember to talk about. He'd ask the safety steward if he had anything to say, maybe ask his co-chairman. Ask for questions, and we'd be done in 5 minutes flat. And then... every time we turned around, someone was doing something wrong. Something simple. Something "obvious". But, WE NEVER TOLD THEM what to do. So, how would they know?
In a perfect world, every single entrant would have read every word of the event info, AND all of the info that we publish on the website. Some of them do. But, the vast majority do not. This is why we have a detailed driver's meeting. And why we require everyone to be there.
After you've been autocrossing With FAST for a year, maybe you could recite most of the driver's meeting from memory. Is that a bad thing??? And would you have committed all of those things to memory if you DIDN'T hear it at the start of every event?
Nah, not gonna change the driver's meeting. In fact, I've had people -- both newbs and experienced autocrossers, compliment us on our driver's meeting. It's good stuff, and we get through it as quickly as we can.
As for the novice walk, it needs to focus on "how to navigate the course" first, and then not so much "how to drive the course" as "how to not make gross errors in driving the course". We can't teach a full novice school's worth of stuff in a 15-minute novice walk! While we don't have a "standard" for it, every novice walk should begin with "what do the cones mean" (similar to what we talk about at the driver's meeting), explaining pointer cones, apex cones, slaloms and how to "read" the course. From there, you're hinting at "racing line" theory and giving them an idea of how to properly place their car at key points along the course, and where to LOOK when they drive the course.
Keep the novice walk simple. If we were to script it, the script would pretty much be the preceding paragraph. Rather than do that, I just try to pay attention the first few times I ask someone to do a novice walk to see if they're doing it right. Some people are very good at it (you and Jamie, for instance). Some people tend to gloss over the basics, or rush it... and I usually won't ask them to do novice walks if that is their style. We all have our strengths.
Remember, in addition to requiring first-timers to do a novice walk, we also require them to carry an instructor with them on at least their first run. THAT is where the more personalized instruction comes in.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Is it me, or did we have a lot of problems on course this past year? I don't remember having as many course worker issues in years past.
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
No, I don't think it's just you.
Part of it is that we've had some events, both Classic and Open, where there was an abundance of "novices" (less than 6 events), and we were forced to put drivers with only 3 events out on course as a "Corner Captain". It's far from ideal, but sometimes we have to do it.
I can't put my finger on the other part of it. We've also had people who have been autocrossing for a long time and should KNOW BETTER doing stuff that they know is wrong. Maybe they just don't want to be out there. Which I get. But, it's part of the sport. Gotta be done. And there aren't enough "non-course" work assignments to cover everyone who might want or "deserve" to not be on course. Plus, we NEED experienced people out there to train the noobs.
You may have noticed (or not) that one of the changes we made to the driver's meeting recently was to emphasize DECISIVENESS when it comes to red flags. Don't question it, just do it! Wave the damned flag when there's a reason to. That does seem to have helped a little. We're not seeing as many instances of "one flag waving" and nobody else reacting.
People still often don't seem to get that it's the driver's responibility to stop for a downed cone if they think it will be counted against them. One cone down in the finish chute or something is no reason to even think about red-flagging a car. If the driver chooses to stop for it, they will. If they don't stop for it... you're not going to call that cone against them, you know it was down. People get too wrapped up in "OMG, I don't have time to reset that!" Relax. It's one cone. Get closer to it, make it obvious that "yes, I'm here, I see the cone... no, I'm not going to run out in front of you", let the car pass, then reset it. If the driver sees you there, sees the cone, and they're on THE run, they may choose not to stop for it.
Part of it is that we've had some events, both Classic and Open, where there was an abundance of "novices" (less than 6 events), and we were forced to put drivers with only 3 events out on course as a "Corner Captain". It's far from ideal, but sometimes we have to do it.
I can't put my finger on the other part of it. We've also had people who have been autocrossing for a long time and should KNOW BETTER doing stuff that they know is wrong. Maybe they just don't want to be out there. Which I get. But, it's part of the sport. Gotta be done. And there aren't enough "non-course" work assignments to cover everyone who might want or "deserve" to not be on course. Plus, we NEED experienced people out there to train the noobs.
You may have noticed (or not) that one of the changes we made to the driver's meeting recently was to emphasize DECISIVENESS when it comes to red flags. Don't question it, just do it! Wave the damned flag when there's a reason to. That does seem to have helped a little. We're not seeing as many instances of "one flag waving" and nobody else reacting.
People still often don't seem to get that it's the driver's responibility to stop for a downed cone if they think it will be counted against them. One cone down in the finish chute or something is no reason to even think about red-flagging a car. If the driver chooses to stop for it, they will. If they don't stop for it... you're not going to call that cone against them, you know it was down. People get too wrapped up in "OMG, I don't have time to reset that!" Relax. It's one cone. Get closer to it, make it obvious that "yes, I'm here, I see the cone... no, I'm not going to run out in front of you", let the car pass, then reset it. If the driver sees you there, sees the cone, and they're on THE run, they may choose not to stop for it.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Yeah some of the REALLY basic stuff like "What's a gate, what's a slalom, what's a pointer" never even crosses my mind... I think a quick bullet point list would be handy to have for those doing the novice walk. not a big detailed thing like the driver's meeting, but a list of things to hit in general.
I could probably steal it from the novice school post I guess.
And Jaime I must look scarier than you because my novices are usually very well behaved! Maybe you need a bouncer to go with you on the walk.
I could probably steal it from the novice school post I guess.
And Jaime I must look scarier than you because my novices are usually very well behaved! Maybe you need a bouncer to go with you on the walk.
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mike murdoch
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
I have noticed this and I do agree with what you're saying, however, this part of driver's meeting is followed with a warning that a red flag will cause one, maybe two reruns.You may have noticed (or not) that one of the changes we made to the driver's meeting recently was to emphasize DECISIVENESS when it comes to red flags. Don't question it, just do it! Wave the damned flag when there's a reason to. That does seem to have helped a little. We're not seeing as many instances of "one flag waving" and nobody else reacting.
I remember a multi page web discussion on "if one waves, should all of the red flags wave?" and that horse was beaten passed the glue stage, so I'm not trying restart a discussion, and I have no idea on how to improve the explanation. I can see how these two statements in the driver's meeting could cause confusion.
The only thing I can think of to improve the red flag events is to make sure experienced corner captains are in charge of the red flags on course.
Just my $.02 worth.
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
I think I red-flagged the course three times at the December 17th classic event. It was only my second event, but between my first event in the novice walk, and the great drivers meeting to start the day I was pretty well equipped to do my job. I don't think I stopped the course for anything that was unwarranted.
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
True. But it's also really two different points. One is don't wave red flags for stupid reasons, which is what follows the reruns comment. Two is if you DO choose to wave the flag, wave the heck out of it and everybody wave it and don't question it. Which has been the issue - wishy-washy flag waving. I saw one guy standing by the side of the runway standing there and sticking the flag out to the side and just hanging it there. Really?jmdoc66 wrote:I have noticed this and I do agree with what you're saying, however, this part of driver's meeting is followed with a warning that a red flag will cause one, maybe two reruns.
Justin sounds like he was attentive at the meeting, understood the concepts, and was able to apply them (Thanks!). If we all would, how sweet it would be...
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Loren Williams
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Gotcha.jaball77 wrote:Yeah some of the REALLY basic stuff like "What's a gate, what's a slalom, what's a pointer" never even crosses my mind... I think a quick bullet point list would be handy to have for those doing the novice walk. not a big detailed thing like the driver's meeting, but a list of things to hit in general.
I think it's just a thought process. Novice walk starts at the starting line, and your first thought should be "what is the person who has never autocrossed before thinking right now". You have to put yourself in their position, and tell them all of those basic things that they don't know yet. And keep in mind that most of them WON'T ask questions.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Loren Williams
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
That is supposed to be how it works. Of course, we can't be watching 6 work stations to verify that. And I'm sure some corner captains try to delegate... which is fine if the "trainee" is ready for it, or if the corner captain is standing by ready to say "wave the damned flag!" when necessary. But, if the corner captain is handing off the equipment and tuning out, that's not good.jmdoc66 wrote:The only thing I can think of to improve the red flag events is to make sure experienced corner captains are in charge of the red flags on course.
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Some corner captains simply don't want to captain...they're working as if they're out there by themselves in their narrow zone, rather than managing their crew over the whole area. (I've spent lots of time watching course workers over the last year.) Don't know if that's lack of confidence in their own talents or what, but if you're marked down as corner captain, step up and own it!Loren wrote:And I'm sure some corner captains try to delegate...
That's it...fangs out, and Joe will just have to get used to it!jaball77 wrote:And Jaime I must look scarier than you because my novices are usually very well behaved!
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David Lineberry
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Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Could the drivers meeting be 5 minutes shorter? Yep. But in the end FasT probably does the best job " keeping to the schedule" that I ever have seen / 15 years running with 7 different clubs.
Schedule is posted. Schedule is followed. Fun times happen. Home on time.
Schedule is posted. Schedule is followed. Fun times happen. Home on time.
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- Location:
- Safety Harbor
- Joined: December 2006
- Posts: 13044
- First Name: Loren
- Last Name: Williams
- Favorite Car: A Mirage
- Location: Safety Harbor
Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
Thanks, Dave. 
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Joe --
- Well-Known
- Drives: Miata
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- Location:
- Valrico, FL
- Joined: May 2010
- Posts: 410
- First Name: Joe
- Last Name: --
- Favorite Car: Miata
- Location: Valrico, FL
Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
I thought we were having FUN on Saturdays.That's it...fangs out, and Joe will just have to get used to it!jaball77 wrote:And Jaime I must look scarier than you because my novices are usually very well behaved!
Joe Vance
Be debt free! http://www.daveramsey.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Be debt free! http://www.daveramsey.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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- Notorious
- Drives: Whatever has more miles than anything on the grid
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- Location:
- Just within reach of storm surge
- Joined: December 2006
- Posts: 2308
- First Name: ----------
- Last Name: ----------
- Favorite Car: Whatever has more miles than anything on the grid
- Location: Just within reach of storm surge
Formalizing the Novice walk...and shortening the driver's meeting?
I'm always having fun....jev61 wrote:jaball77 wrote:I thought we were having FUN on Saturdays.
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