Da Groj

Okay, first of all, I need to improve the driver. Absolutely need more seat time, more practice with these mysterious "slaloms" and find a way to suck less and still have as much fun as I'm having. The cheapest, easiest thing to do would be to relax and participate in FAST and other events...

But I'm kinda OCD, so I think about future upgrades and improvements. For some, "planning the vacation" is half the fun and I'm one of those people. And, it's a quiet day here in semi-retired consultant world, so why not type? Comments are welcome, of course

My car is a 2016 VW Golf Sportwagen, 6 speed automatic with manual shifting, 15x6 wheels with 195/65r15 grand touring all-seasons. Nannies can be disabled. For everyday driving, the ride is comfortable. I mention this as my upgrading will be constrained to minimize the effect on the ride quality of the car....or, the car can be transformed back after an event, to be the pleasant DD it is.

I don't think this car will win any class as long as Miatas are allowed to compete so I'm kinda on the fence about targeting a class. That said, my thinking is I'm S5, or S3 or Fun Run, at least for a couple years. Down the road, an ECU tune may push me into an M class.

So far, I've made two purchases:
1. upgraded the stock 19mm rear sway to a 22mm GTI rear sway. Car feels better and rolls less. NVH is just slightly more. Wife doesn't doesn't notice
2. bought a spare set of wheels and tires (same tires as came with the car) for autox use. Training wheels/tires that will save the edges of my DD tires. They were cheap off of craigslist.

To stay in S classes, I'm thinking three upgrades: better tires, adjustable dampers, and adjustable rear sway bar. For the most part, all three could be put on the car or adjusted Friday night and taken off Sunday in less than an hour and a half each way.

Tires: Once I get some more seat time on my Training wheels, I plan to replace tires with a more aggressive compound, either Ultra high performance or Max performance, in Tire Rack terminology. Diameter will have to be smaller in order to use my 15" wheels but I'm okay with that unless I run into some 16" wheel bargain on craigslist that would expand my diameter choices. Thinking 195/55 BFG sport comp2 for UHP or Star Specs for Max performance.

Dampers. Adjustable dampers make sense to me given my DD ride quality goals. Unfortunately there are no obvious choices for this platform in terms of rear shocks that adjust on the car, unless I go full coilover kit, which I won't do. If I don't find an off the shelf solution, it leaves me with deciding if I want to remove adjustable shocks for adjustment, or just switch them to a firmer non-adjustable for events, or just get something that's a moderate compromise and leave them on.

Sway bar. I think the car can handle a stiffer bar but my lack of driving experience may be fooling me. If it can, after firming up dampers, I'd look a bar with a modest bump in firmness to what I have, with the ability to adjust it even firmer.

What I wonder about: given my rear damper concerns wrt adjustment and firmness, can I substitute adding dampening firmness in the rear with more firmness in rear sway bar?

Other stuff:

I've been down the firmer bushings and adjustable camber plate path on a BMW and though I liked the razor sharp steering feel, I decided it was not for me. Wife also decided it was not for me

I've thought about just playing around with spacers to widen the front track. Seems like it would reduce understeer and it would be a cheap, easy to undo experiment. Low priority, something to do after the things above are sorted out.

mymomswagon wrote:I've thought about just playing around with spacers to widen the front track. Seems like it would reduce understeer and it would be a cheap, easy to undo experiment. Low priority, something to do after the things above are sorted out.

Unless you use hub centric 1/4" spacers on your FWD car that is putting a lot of stress on the lugs to keep the wheels centered plus you might have to install longer studs to make sure you have enough thread engagement on the lugnuts. Probably better to just put some toe out in the front and forget it.

Any chance you'd consider a used dedicated street "race car" ready to run and sorted out? Plenty out there. Just remember: "You cannot retire from something you've never earned money at." You should read the Fastiva thread to see just how much money you can sink into an econobox to make it fun.

Shocks? I've tried a lot of them and am blissfully happy with Bilsteins both HD and Sport on ALL MY CARS non-adjustable with a life time warrantee (provided you are over 55 and don't linger). The ride is exceptional too. The billet build quality is exceptional compared to Koni's et al. I don't compete at regional/national levels anymore so waste of money on most "upgrades". All my cars have a stock suspension, decent alignment and are still competitive depending on who drives them. I finish in top 50% OA still most all events.

You are welcome to do a ridealong in either my RX8 or Vette anytime. Both are simple and 13 - 17 years old.

Doug

mymomswagon wrote:Okay, first of all, I need to improve the driver. Absolutely need more seat time, more practice with these mysterious "slaloms" and find a way to suck less and still have as much fun as I'm having. The cheapest, easiest thing to do would be to relax and participate in FAST and other events...

Your head is in the right place.

But I'm kinda OCD, so I think about future upgrades and improvements. For some, "planning the vacation" is half the fun and I'm one of those people. And, it's a quiet day here in semi-retired consultant world, so why not type? Comments are welcome, of course

The sage advice is to always try to do one upgrade at a time and give yourself time to learn exactly what it did. If it's adjustable, adjust it and see what the settings do. Learn that ONE part and what it did for you.

I don't think this car will win any class as long as Miatas are allowed to compete so I'm kinda on the fence about targeting a class. That said, my thinking is I'm S5, or S3 or Fun Run, at least for a couple years. Down the road, an ECU tune may push me into an M class.

I'd stick with S5. You don't have the power to compete in S3, and you're not willing to do the level of suspension mods you'd need to compete in M4.

So far, I've made two purchases:
1. upgraded the stock 19mm rear sway to a 22mm GTI rear sway. Car feels better and rolls less. NVH is just slightly more. Wife doesn't doesn't notice
2. bought a spare set of wheels and tires (same tires as came with the car) for autox use. Training wheels/tires that will save the edges of my DD tires. They were cheap off of craigslist.

Give yourself some time to learn that swaybar. Then play with the alignment. Have you done alignment yet?

To stay in S classes, I'm thinking three upgrades: better tires, adjustable dampers, and adjustable rear sway bar. For the most part, all three could be put on the car or adjusted Friday night and taken off Sunday in less than an hour and a half each way.

Modding/unmodding a car between events is kinda silly. Hard on you. Hard on the parts. Plus, then you're driving a significantly DIFFERENT car than the one you drive daily. Ideally, you'll find it easier to learn if the car is exactly the same when you drive it daily.

Tires: Once I get some more seat time on my Training wheels, I plan to replace tires with a more aggressive compound, either Ultra high performance or Max performance, in Tire Rack terminology. Diameter will have to be smaller in order to use my 15" wheels but I'm okay with that unless I run into some 16" wheel bargain on craigslist that would expand my diameter choices. Thinking 195/55 BFG sport comp2 for UHP or Star Specs for Max performance.

Last I checked, 17" was the place to be for cheaper tires. Not sure if that applies to 195's, though. You might do better to stick with 15's or 16's there.

Ooooh:
195/55-16 RE-71

Or, these are dirt cheap, and surely a significant step up from your OE All Seasons:
195/55-16 Firehawk

16" gets you back to the height that's appropriate for your car. Shorter tire will give you better gearing for acceleration, but shorter legs. Your top speed in 2nd gear (usually very important for autocross) will be less with a shorter tire.

Wheels: Your car should have 5x112 43mm offset wheels. The GTI 16's are 49 and 51mm offset because they're fitting wider tires and need the inside clearance. You don't need that since you're sticking with a 195. So, Ideally, you'd stick with a 49 offset... or possibly less (check your fender clearance... you could probably go down to a 40 or even 38 without issue). That gets you the track increase WITHOUT having to fit spacers and/or longer wheel studs.

Plenty of factory options if you look around:
Hmmmm... 16x6.5 40mm offset

Or.. 16x7 42mm offset. (ad says 45mm offset, but look at the photos)

Dampers. Adjustable dampers make sense to me given my DD ride quality goals. Unfortunately there are no obvious choices for this platform in terms of rear shocks that adjust on the car, unless I go full coilover kit, which I won't do. If I don't find an off the shelf solution, it leaves me with deciding if I want to remove adjustable shocks for adjustment, or just switch them to a firmer non-adjustable for events, or just get something that's a moderate compromise and leave them on.

Lots to think about here. In my experience, staying "stock", you can often get away with stock front dampers on a FWD car. Where the adjustability really comes in handy is the rear. Having the rear as stiff as you want it for an autocross is downright uncomfortable on the street. So, even if you leave the front alone (or just get a good non-adjustable front strut when you need it), having something easily adjustable in the rear would be a Good Thing.

I'd first look and see just how close your rear shocks are to what's on a regular Golf or GTI. They might not be EXACTLY the same, but maybe they'll fit? Maybe some very slight modification will make them fit? That might be your easiest route to adjustability. If not, Rear shocks on a FWD car are usually pretty basic. You could adapt something to work and get the adjustability that you want. Photos of your rear suspension would help here. Unless there's an easy bolt-on option.

Sway bar. I think the car can handle a stiffer bar but my lack of driving experience may be fooling me. If it can, after firming up dampers, I'd look a bar with a modest bump in firmness to what I have, with the ability to adjust it even firmer.

You can surely do more rear bar. Either an adjustable aftermarket GTI bar, or mod the one you have. (BTW, the fact that you share a rear bar with a GTI probably means that the whole rear subframe and suspension is the same... factory rear GTI shocks might be a good upgrade for the rear of your car. Not adjustable, but firmer, and surely plenty streetable.) Mods you could do: If there's enough space at the attachment point of the arm, drill another hole as far inboard as possible, shortening the lever arm of the bar, thus making it stiffer. Or... if there's a nice straight section in the middle of the bar, you could get a hollow tube (1/8" wall or so) with a ~22mm inner diameter. Cut a couple feet out of your bar, replace it with the larger diameter tube. You could save a couple pounds AND have a stiffer bar! If you don't mind doing your homework and math, you can have a reasonable idea of how much stiffness you're adding (and make the arms adjustable, anyway... you could LENGTHEN the arms to give you a softer adjustment point if needed). And I know a guy (Joe Brannon) would could weld it up for you. For under $100, you could create something equivalent to an aftermarket bar that would cost $2-300 or more.

What I wonder about: given my rear damper concerns wrt adjustment and firmness, can I substitute adding dampening firmness in the rear with more firmness in rear sway bar?

Yup. But, everything affects everything else. There's always a trade-off. You already know it's going to affect NVH. Stiffness of a bar is a function of the diameter to the 4th power... a minimal change in diameter yields a major change in stiffness. Going from 19 to 22mm was a big step. Going from 22-25 would be an even larger step. (but, probably a very good one)

One of the things we learned on the FASTiva was what "too much rear bar" does. Unfortunately, our "rear bar" is non-adjustable, so we left it and modded around it. What happens with too much rear bar is that the inside wheel lift will happen almost instantly. And the other thing I learned is that as soon as you get rear wheel lift, your swaybar is no longer a factor. It has transferred all of the weight that it possibly can, and ALL of your roll resistance is now coming from the front! So, if you've got 900# of roll resistance in the rear, and 200# of roll resistance in the front... as soon as the wheel lifts "a little", all roll resistance shifts to the front, you instantly get "a lot" of wheel lift. It makes the car feel very unsettled.

23-24mm, even up to 26mm rear bars are not uncommon in the FWD aftermarket. You've got a pretty heavy car, and it's a wagon, so lots of rear weight. I wouldn't hesitate to go up to 24mm. And I'd go up to 25-26mm as long as it was adjustable.

You might find that the car needs more front damping to keep that wheel lift "controlled". (front damping, not rear) So, front adjustable struts would be nice. But, you could "set them and forget them". They don't need to be crazy stiff. Just enough to do their job.

I've been down the firmer bushings and adjustable camber plate path on a BMW and though I liked the razor sharp steering feel, I decided it was not for me. Wife also decided it was not for me

There's something to be said for compliance. Both from a comfort AND handling perspective. Colin Chapman is rumored to have said it best: "any suspension will work if you don't let it".

I've thought about just playing around with spacers to widen the front track. Seems like it would reduce understeer and it would be a cheap, easy to undo experiment. Low priority, something to do after the things above are sorted out.

I've never bothered playing that game. At least not intentionally. Remember that moving the offset out changes the load on your hub bearings. Can be a problem on some cars, especially when coupled with high-grip tires and autocross cornering loads. If you do spacers, please fit longer wheel studs! (I've seen a wheel depart a car due to that very thing... they roll a loooooong way)

I take it's a 1.8t sport wagon? Rears for sure will fit I would find out if koni gti spec shocks or even the gti shocks fit the front. I believe they fit. Koni makes the shock for the gti for sure as i've been following the ppl who run gtis.

It might be the 1.4t models that use a smaller front diameter shock and 1.8t might be the same as the gti. I am not certain but I recall reading about this. Similar to the mk6. Which for sure was the case on the base jetta

With spacers on a vw you'll need longer wheel bolts...

Doug, Loren, thanks. Lots of good suggestions for me to think about and let sink in. A few responses just to add more info and drill in a little.

Regarding the platform and GTI: yes indeed much of this car is interchangeable, especially in the rear. Even the 4wd Golf R uses the same part numbers for Bilstein and Koni shocks for Golf, Golf Wagon and GTI. So GTI or R shocks might be something cheap to try. OE shock part #s are different and they have different spring rates so I suspect they're a bit firmer.

In the front, the GTI and R have bigger strut bodies (55mm vs 50mm for me) and wheel carrier sleeves to accommodate.

I'll post some pics of suspension later.

Regarding spacers, yeah not a major hot button but figured you'd have thoughts on the concept. Wouldn't do anything other than hub-centric with extended bolts, if I went forward with it. There's plenty of fender room and vendors sell "flush kits" of 15mm front and 20mm rear. Would rather explore the other ideas first.

Alignment - I have toe plates and used to align my front toe on my BMW as I experimented with camber plates and M3 control arms. But go figure, really haven't thought about toe adjustment. Thinking to much about camber which is NA up front with stock parts or expensive and NVH laden with aftermarket. It would be easy to play with zero or slight toe out up front. Great suggestion, thank you. Rear has both camber and toe adjustment available, though I'm not sure how far it goes. I'd have to outsource rear alignment but maybe that's worthwhile too.

I'll think about all of this more and maybe bump the thread with questions as they arise. THANK YOU!

195/65-15
205/55-16
225/45-17

All almost exactly 25 inches in overall diameter. But you probably knew that...
As Loren said, lots more choices, and perhaps cheaper, in the 17" size, but you'll feel the short sidewall a bit.

Well, now that I've driven your car, I can say that if it was me, I'd simply start with tires. I say that 'cuz your car is really not bad at all as it sits right now. More tire will make it more satisfying, and may help clarify your next move after tires. So, if you wanna stay S5 that limits you to 195, and if you wanna keep your 15 inch wheels, that means a 195/55 tire, as it's really the only 195 size with anything near a performance compound (and a few choices that are quite good). You mentioned a couple of those already (and so'd Loren), and if you are going to have dedicated autocross wheels, you can max out the tires (money is no object! ). You also mentioned bargain 16s, but tire choices there could be similarly, if not more, limited. And you already have the extra 15" wheels.

Next, get that back end to loosen up a bit. The car's not badly balanced, but still the front gives out well before the back. So stiffer rear: sway bar, shocks, tire pressure. Less negative camber (stand 'em up!). And if the front has any camber adjustment, get more negative.

So, that's my .02 Nothing original, just another opinion/data point to consider.

Thanks Steve.

Reviewing what's on Tire Rack, there seems to be fewer 195s for 16s in aggressive compounds. Choices in 16s bring diameter closer to stock. But I have the 15 wheels already so maybe I stick with them and deal with diameter pros and cons. Tire width on the BFGs looks rather plump according to TR.

But, won't go for new tires until current ones are near done, or done is in sight plus tire rebate. You and others are invited to help me in this effort as future co-drivers.

Sunday's event was proof that I still need to focus on paragraph 1 of my thread, though I felt like a made some progress overall. Good to hear the Classic will include a 9 cone slalom. Need that as well as turnaround skill. Heck, just need more skill period.

ALignment
After getting excited about aligning my front toe DIY, pulled off those sporty plastic hub caps, pulled out the toe plates and leaned them...ummm no they don't touch the wheel. Fail on the factory wheels as well. Hmmm...looks like either a new tool or off to see a pro.

The plan comes together...

Signed up to codrive with you again next event. We'll get your slaloms up to speed ( ).

[emoji106]

Sent from mobile

Yo, dawg, I heard your front camber was non-adjustable, so thought I'd turn you on to what you need.

Loren wrote:Yo, dawg, I heard your front camber was non-adjustable, so thought I'd turn you on to what you need.

LOL !

I think those were used on the Family Truckster after Clark jumped the Grand Canyon.

Solar wrote:

Loren wrote:Yo, dawg, I heard your front camber was non-adjustable, so thought I'd turn you on to what you need.

LOL !

I think those were used on the Family Truckster after Clark jumped the Grand Canyon.

You know how I know you're old?

New tires on the way..."nothing to see here"

At the start of this thread, thought my next set of tires would be more aggressive and fun but I'm going to temporarily postpone the fun.

a. Steve has consistently shown me that I'm leaving seconds on the table and so I plan to continue to run on cheapo tires for awhile longer and learn a few things before going after expensive stuff.
b. Thought my current set would get me through the season but the dog track bit too many chunks out of them to drive on them safely, at least up front.

Was leaning toward patching the issue with a set of used tires for the front, but then ran into a new tire deal that I just had to do:
4 new Kuhmo Solus TA71, $46 per tire, shipped, $31 per tire after $60 rebate, before install. For most of you this may be a real whatever or buzz kill but I'll do my best to put these to good use.

Just one thought:

LOTS of tire pressure. Those things are going to have very squishy sidewalls.

Loren wrote:Just one thought:

LOTS of tire pressure. Those things are going to have very squishy sidewalls.

agree, ran previous set ~42 front, 47 rear.
fyi previous set was H speed rating, these are V

I purchased the thoses same tire for my parents Elantra. Great daily tire, a great tire in the rain, and quiet. I havn't push them to autocross levels yet but so far I have found:
Soft sidewall and numb steering feel, not the worst but not good for the class.
They are quiet even at the limit. They do have good honest audio feedback but I just wish I could turn up the volume.
Grip levels are good for the class of tire, lateral grip was better than expected, longitudinal grip is about average.

At $31 dollars they are a steal!

Great price!
We'll make 'em work...

Native wrote:Great price!
We'll make 'em work...

You know? I think I smell a tire PAX in our future. Forget the width. Concentrate on level of crappiness.

I am going to volunteer to be fat tire inspector next season. Then I might bring lunch?