But, what about Caster?

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But, what about Caster?

Postby Loren » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:37 pm

This topic has come up, as it should. I had some basic knowledge on it, but did some additional research last night.

As autocrossers, we're all about negative camber and keeping our contact patch nice and flat in a turn. There are trade-offs, of course. Everything is a compromise, nothing is free. If you have "too much" camber on your drive wheels, you're potentially losing straight-line traction. And if you have "too much" camber on your front wheels, you're compromising straight-line braking traction. And if you have "too much" camber, especially coupled with a lot of toe (in or out), you'll munch a set of tires in a hurry. But, within those constraints, for a street car, we almost always want "as much negative camber as we can get", or as much as we can stand in consideration of the other variables.

But, what about Caster? We don't talk about it much. The general wisdom is "run as much as you can get". Again, on a street car, that's almost universally true because within the factory alignment range, we can't get "too much" caster. So, if you want the short answer: Run max caster, but don't sacrifice camber to get caster. (on some cars with fully adjustable alignment, you do have to make that choice to give up some caster to get more static camber) If your car has manual steering or steering that otherwise already feels "heavy", you'll want to continue reading.

Of course, we're not going to stop there without exploring the "why" and "how".

What IS Caster, and how do we adjust it? Caster is the tilt of the steering axis fore or aft. If it tilts forward, that's called "negative caster", and it makes our wheel potentially all sorts of unstable, like the front wheel of a shopping cart, following the whims of the road. So, we definitely want "some" positive caster, tilting the top of the steering axis toward the rear. If this is adjustable at all (it's not on a lot of cars), the adjustment will either be at the top of the strut (push it toward the rear), or at the rear of the lower control arm. (move the rear inner control arm bushing inward and it pulls the ball joint end rearward) Typical street cars are in the area of 4 degrees. Rear wheel drive and/or performance cars will run closer to 7 or 8, sometimes as much as 10 degrees.

Why do I want max Caster, and how much is too much? Glad you asked. Caster does two things for us. When you turn the steering wheel, the caster on the outside wheel becomes negative camber! (woohoo) On the inside wheel it becomes positive camber, but we're not loading that wheel as much, so that's okay. The other thing it does is introduce a jacking force on the outside tire. It's actively trying to LIFT that corner of the car a little bit. This is what gives us the most readily felt effect of caster, steering feel. If you have adjustable caster, you can easily experiment with this. Set your caster to something absurdly low, like 2-3 degrees. You'll find that your steering feels light and airy, and has almost no self-centering. You turn into a turn, you MUST turn out of it, the car wont' straighten itself. It feels weird. Then go the other way. Set it to 6 or 8 degrees, or whatever you can get. (on my wife's 2015 Miata, we got 10 degrees) You'll find that the steering feel is much more precise, and the wheel snaps back to center nicely. If you have manual steering, you'll want to temper your desire for "max caster" with your desire to be able to steer the car! I found that on a Miata with a manual rack, I like right around 3.8-4 degrees. Less than that is too vague. More than that is hard to turn in a parking lot. And 7 degrees was way too much of a workout.

Too much caster? Well, aside from the possibility of getting into "too much steering effort" on a manual steering car, you're not normally going to see it. However, if you get into modifying suspension in ways that will allow you to truly get "as much as you want", there are some other effects of extreme caster. People building custom hot rods, lo-cost race cars, or crazy off-road trucks will sometimes get into this. More than about 8-10 degrees is usually where things can get bad. (of course, there are a LOT of other variables) What can happen is that the wheel will get into an oscillation, just like your wonky shopping car wheel. You get over a certain speed, and it will just wobble! Again, you're not likely to get there on a street car without modification. But, if you happen to get more than 8 degrees of caster AND you experience a "speed wobble", you might try backing off on the caster and see if that fixes it.

How much difference does this REALLY make in our negative camber? Good question. If you've got a camber gauge or access to an alignment rack and some time, you can experiment with this. Set your caster to minimum, say 3 degrees. Then measure your camber... turn the wheel a half turn, and measure camber again. That's your caster-induced camber gain. Now set your caster to maximum, say 7 degrees. Do the same camber check. Congratulations, now you have some data!

In playing with Miatas, I found that every degree of caster gave about a tenth of a degree of camber. I was actually kind of disappointed. For an autocross car that's running 2 degrees of negative camber, and 5 degrees of caster... it was only giving me another half degree. So, for me, I think of caster mostly as a way to tune steering feel. More caster = crisper steering feel and more wheel self-centering and straight-line stability.

Where it becomes more relevant is when your'e designing or setting up a more street-oriented car. Something that you don't want 2 degrees of negative camber on. It's going to see a lot of highway driving, you want to limit it to, say -1 degrees of camber. But, the suspension will allow you to dial in 8 degrees of caster! So, in a turn, that 8 degrees of caster might be .8 degrees of camber... putting you a lot closer to where you want to be in a turn!

If you really want to muddy your brain, you can try to understand the difference between "king pin inclination" and "caster" and how they play together. KPI is sort of like camber on the steering axis. How much the steering axis tilts in or out. It's sort of related to camber, but there are ways that things can be designed or adjusted to where KPI at the steering axis and Camber at the wheel are not the same. I'm not going to go any further than that. 8-)
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But, what about Caster?

Postby Loren » Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:48 pm

Here's another interesting tidbit about changing caster. You might need to think about it for a minute for it to make sense.

Changing the caster angle can add or remove bump steer.

If your steering rack is behind the steering axis, adding caster (tilting the steering axis rearward) will effectively also move the outer tie-rod end down a bit.

In my case, that's a good thing because I've lowered the car, which lowered the steering rack relative to the outer tie-rod end and introduced an upward angle. Severe bump steer. I took care of some of it with a bump steer kit, but it's maxed out, and I still have some bump steer. So, adding caster, for all of its usual benefits... will also reduce my bump steer a little bit more.
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But, what about Caster?

Postby CaptainSquirts » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:51 pm

Been reading about caster and the benefits of it for a little while now. Here is something interesting that a person on the evo forums documented about caster and a bunch of different degrees. Pretty good information to give you an idea on what it did.

Only thing that kinda confused me is the steering degree angle, one being positive(outside tire) and negative(inside tire).

Here's the link to the page.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/motor ... e-you.html
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caster.PNG
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But, what about Caster?

Postby Loren » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:37 pm

With positive caster, when you turn, the outside wheel goes more negative camber, the inside wheel goes more positive. It's really hard to visualize, but that's what happens.
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But, what about Caster?

Postby CaptainSquirts » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:42 pm

Nope, makes perfect sense now :thumbwink:
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But, what about Caster?

Postby nathanwilliams617 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:46 pm

Good stuff
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But, what about Caster?

Postby Loren » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:37 am

Good Article that ties Caster, KPI and Scrub Radius together pretty well. The last couple pages are particularly good.

That info, plus plugging some numbers into the suspension simulator has made a few things more clear for my car.

First, I never realized this before, but adjusting camber at the top of a McStrut is ALSO adjusting KPI. I never cared before because I didn't even know what KPI was or what it did. Now, if my numbers are correct (and I think they're close enough... every cross-check I've done between different measurements and angles always comes out VERY close), I don't have a lot of scrub radius. Being FWD, I don't need or want a lot. But, I wonder if I have so little by design? Maybe one of the fuel economy compromises that they made with the car, minimizing rolling resistance and all that? Maybe. Anyway, I don't have much, but it affects steering feel... so I do want SOME... and probably don't want LESS. Tipping the top of the strut inward adds KPI (good), and reduces scrub radius (in this case, that's bad, I literally have less than half an inch of scrub radius already). Tipping the top of the strut outwards reduces KPI (bad), and also reduces max attainable camber... which, while I don't need more, I still don't need less. Bottom line: I don't need to adjust the top of the strut in or out. It's pretty much perfect where it is.

So, it appears that there's little more I can do to improve my McStrut front suspension other than push the top of the strut rearward to gain some additional caster. I should be able to gain about 2.5 degrees, which will improve steering feel quite a bit. It will also have the side effect of lowering the steering arm a tiny bit (I'm too lazy to do the math, but it's a REALLY small amount), which will improve my bump steer.
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Postby jbrannon7 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:53 am

I have spent some time, not much, considering your camber plate mod. I suspect that adding caster is going to increase your tuning circle diameter. If you have not changed the plates yet you could confirm this by measuring the before and after turn radius. It may not be much, an inch or 2, but perhaps more. A good, easily visualized, analogy is a motorcycle, they call it rake, but when someone converts a bike into a chopper and adds rake and extends the front forks, they give up a lot in turn radius. Of course that is an extreme example compared to what you are doing but easy for me to visualize.
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Postby Loren » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:02 am

I hadn't considered that. Surprised it's not mentioned in any of the stuff I've read. Will have to ponder it as you have. A couple inches of turning circle is no big deal, of course. But, still an interesting thing to understand.
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Postby CaptainSquirts » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:10 am

Question. What is the turning circle and how does adding/changing the caster affect it?
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Postby Loren » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:43 am

Turning circle is the smallest diameter you can turn your car around.

How it relates to caster is something that Joe understands... and we need to try to understand. :lol:
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Postby CaptainSquirts » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:51 am

So since the camber plate is going to move your coilover back a little to give you that extra positive camber, I believe your wheel will move back a little bit as well towards your rear tire fender well? In this case using Joe's analogy wouldn't it do the opposite since it's being pulled back a little rather than extended out?
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Postby jbrannon7 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:19 pm

CaptainSquirts wrote:So since the camber plate is going to move your coilover back a little to give you that extra positive camber, I believe your wheel will move back a little bit as well towards your rear tire fender well? In this case using Joe's analogy wouldn't it do the opposite since it's being pulled back a little rather than extended out?
I think it will move it rearward by a small amount, I don't think it will add camber. But it's "rake" caster angle will be increased.
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Postby CaptainSquirts » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:44 pm

Well hopefully Loren has extra space for the tire to not rub but I'm sure he's got it all figured out anyways.
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Postby mymomswagon » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:50 pm

Is it a given that adjusting a camber plate to full caster reduces the static camber at full camber adjustment? I can max out the range of both on my plates but currently don't have a good tool to compare the differences.
Critical damping ??? We don't need no stinking critical damping !
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Postby twistedwankel » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:54 pm

When you drive a cow it's best to have leather seat and dual horns.
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But, what about Caster?

Postby Loren » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:16 pm

Moved this generic "Caster" discussion to the Caster thread.
mymomswagon wrote:Is it a given that adjusting a camber plate to full caster reduces the static camber at full camber adjustment? I can max out the range of both on my plates but currently don't have a good tool to compare the differences.
No, it's not a given. The situation where you get "Camber OR Caster" is with a double wishbone suspension. Or, I suppose if you could adjust caster/camber with your lower control arm on a McStrut suspension.

If you're adjusting the lower control arm (as you would on a Miata, or any other car with a fully adjustable double-wishbone suspension), the Caster adjustment is done at the rear of the lower control arm. You move it in or out, and due to the shape of the control arm (the rear adjuster is typically considerably further back than the front adjuster, which is nearly straight inboard of the balljoint), it pulls the ball joint forward or back. But, because it's moving in and out, it's ALSO moving the ball joint in and out, thus affecting camber. If you adjust it all the way in (max caster), you're reducing the amount of static camber you can get by a little bit.

The forward adjuster on the lower control arm is primarily the camber adjustment. But, with this method of adjustment, caster and camber adjustment is very much "married". If you adjust BOTH adjusters by exactly the same amount, then caster stays the same and you just change camber. If you adjust either one alone, you're adjusting caster and camber at the same time by some amount. Takes a minute to figure it out. Helps to be under a car with wrenches in hand.

If you're just adjusting a caster/camber plate at the top of a strut... if you move it in or out, you're adjusting camber (and kingpin inclination!). If you move it forward/back, you're adjusting caster (and scrub radius!). The caster and camber don't cross-talk as they would if you were adjusting a control arm.

I'm certain that what I just said absolutely didn't clear anything up. :bangwall:

Where caster and camber will ALWAYS be related is in the fact that more caster with always equal more camber when you're turning.
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But, what about Caster?

Postby twistedwankel » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:33 am

So when I "trusted" a guy to do my alignment/welding like they have in Roundy rounders with a lot of Caster in a 82 stang I was king of the xcross for along time. Some times you have to trust the mechanics. Drivers are only secondary to mechanics. Bang gone.
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But, what about Caster?

Postby twistedwankel » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:36 am

You should all live so long to achieve greatness.

https://youtu.be/5GEnCs7FIeY
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But, what about Caster?

Postby Loren » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:53 am

twistedwankel wrote:So when I "trusted" a guy to do my alignment/welding like they have in Roundy rounders with a lot of Caster in a 82 stang I was king of the xcross for along time. Some times you have to trust the mechanics. Drivers are only secondary to mechanics. Bang gone.
While I don't think everyone can, should, or even wants to learn about all of this stuff... I think it's part of the fun of motorsports. Trusting a mechanic is no fun. Not to mention the fact that finding a mechanic who ACTUALLY understands all of this stuff and is willing to apply it is both difficult and expensive!

This is why I drive a Mirage instead of a Miata. I get to have fun learning how to honestly IMPROVE the car. Whereas with a Miata... you're left wondering if you REALLY improved it or not when somebody like Philip comes along and out-drives you in a completely stock Miata with worn out shocks.
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