What about a PAX Class? - Revisited

[Loren]

When we talked about doing a PAX class late last year, most people balked at it. But, now that we've started publishing PAX results (even though the points don't matter and the indexes are all made up), I'm seeing even some of the harshest opponents of PAX asking "where did I finish in the PAX???" And just generally taking note of the PAX results.

This begs the question... now that we've looked at a few months (actually, the whole season, we did them retroactively back to September) of results for the FAST approximation of PAX indexes, do we trust them enough to base a class on it? Several of our fastest drivers are already "competing for fastest PAX". If you guys would compete in a PAX class, it would be easy enough to create one for you.

Pro class? Yea or Nay?

Real quick look at Open event PAX so far, these are the drivers who have finished in the top 5 in PAX:
(this was done REALLY quickly, I may have miscounted by one here or there... but it's close enough for gee-whiz analysis)

Philip Petrie x7
Jason Ball x6
Randy Barrera x6
Jason Souza x5
Mark Hackett x5
Dat Nguyen x3
Elliot Harvey x2
Ken Marion x2
Kurtis Clauser x2
Ben Wheaton
Casey Steege
Drew Scoda
Joe Brannon
Joe Vance
John Wood
Michael Abrahams
Michael Rink
Mike Lawson
Preston Jordan
Ryan Sauer
Tod Byram

Looks like it could be a pretty darned competitive class if enough people opted to do it.

And for references, here are the fabricated PAX indexes that we're using:
R1 - 0.852
M0 - 0.836
M1 - 0.827
M2 - 0.816
M3 - 0.805
M4 - 0.795
S0 - 0.816
S1 - 0.807
S2 - 0.794
S3 - 0.792
S4 - 0.788
S5 - 0.778

[Carracer]

TLDR: I vote no to a FAST PAX class. Want to give out a top PAX sticker? YES.

I will admit the PAX results feel more accurate than I expected. I have enjoyed comparing times. I was in the past and still am for an SCCA 100% based PAX class. Basically completely sidestepping FAST classing and and being a 1-1 SCCA PAX based class so people that have cars or want to build cars to that rule set will have a place to play.

My biggest complaint about a FAST pax class is normally, the only people that want to run a PAX class are at the pointy end of their class, the fast guys. If they jump into a class with each other it waters down the orginal classes. Let's say I stay in S4 and Jason runs in S4 PAX. I win the class but Jason had a better time. Did I really win S4? Personally that is a hollow victory. This happened at State back when GCAC held it. I won ES but I wasn't the fastest ES car. Didn't really feel like a win. I feel like competition builds classes. Having a few rabbits to chase at the front of the class makes the class better.

An overall PAX is fine because if you actually care about PAX IMHO you are going for top PAX out of everyone.

[Jamie]

^^^
Well said.

[Loren]

I get what you're saying. But, I also know that not everyone feels that way.

A lot of clubs have some variant of a Pro Class for the very experienced guys to play in. It gives other people a chance to win something instead of always coming in third or fourth.

And yeah, maybe it's a hollow victory. Maybe they didn't have the skills to beat someone who "could have" been in their class. Or maybe they had the skills, and just not the right car? Or didn't have enough budget? I don't judge.

I mean, really... Anybody who won any class above S4, but finished below an S4 time... Their victory could be considered hollow, as well. But, we still award their finish. You compete against who's running in your class on any given day. A win is a win!

[Loren]

What's really weird here is that Philip is playing up the side of the coin that he's not even on. The top drivers in his class aren't going to vacate and leave him with an easy win. He IS the top driver in his class, and even without him, the talent runs pretty deep in that class.

No, what I expected was that people like Philip would jump at the chance to compete against the other hotshoes in the club for a season championship instead of just an FTD sticker at each event. Philip, Jason, Jason, Drew, Randy, Mark, Elliot, Ken... it would be cool to watch them go head-to-head. And, I would think it would be cool to BE them, going head-to-head with the best competition we have.

I'd run in the class myself if I had a chance at finishing above about 15th. I'm just not in a car that PAX is friendly to. (and I don't think we should adjust the M4 PAX based on MY performance in a slow car) But, those guys who are already finishing high in PAX... and have already won their class repeatedly. It would be a fun challenge. Other people's "hollow victories" are not your concern!

[AScoda]

I think PAX is fine for how we use it now. Its fun for comparison. I dont see the appeal for a separate class. Anyone can look at the PAX results now and see how they compare.
A FPD ticker for top PAX time might work as long as we keep track of anyone like me that is voluntarily upclassed.
We would have manually figure their pax for the class their car is in. I may be the only one that would affect. Dont know.

[jbrannon7]

PAX is not for me. It has been used in several clubs I have raced with and I think it is basically an ego class. You can't really compare yourself with people that should be running in your class because they are usually not running in the same heat you do. You don't grid together, so there is less camaraderie. You don't need to compete with them to win your class so the drive to become as fast is not as strong.

[Loren]

If we did a PAX class, You guys would register in that class, and we'd try to run you together just like we try to run other classes together. (you've still got the early/late thing... but, that's something you can work out with the folks in your class) The competition would be as strong and fun as you guys opted to make it.

Aren't all classes ego classes?

[CaptainSquirts]

Aren't all classes ego classes?

Agreed, we should no longer time the runs and everyone gets 1st place for showing up and just being awesome!

Anywho lets say you run s1 and you run in the Pax class. Would you no longer be in S1 but now only in the Pax class or would you run in both classes? Also you might water down classes that might not have a lot of people in it already.

Anywho I think a Pax sticker like FTD would be a good idea, a class itself? I dunno about that. Anywho what do I know, I never pax well.

[Carracer]

What's really weird here is that Philip is playing up the side of the coin that he's not even on. The top drivers in his class aren't going to vacate and leave him with an easy win. He IS the top driver in his class, and even without him, the talent runs pretty deep in that class.

No, what I expected was that people like Philip would jump at the chance to compete against the other hotshoes in the club for a season championship instead of just an FTD sticker at each event. Philip, Jason, Jason, Drew, Randy, Mark, Elliot, Ken... it would be cool to watch them go head-to-head. And, I would think it would be cool to BE them, going head-to-head with the best competition we have.

I'd run in the class myself if I had a chance at finishing above about 15th. I'm just not in a car that PAX is friendly to. (and I don't think we should adjust the M4 PAX based on MY performance in a slow car) But, those guys who are already finishing high in PAX... and have already won their class repeatedly. It would be a fun challenge. Other people's "hollow victories" are not your concern!

I don't think I'm subtle about the fact I bench race everyone at an event. It's fun because now everyone is a competitor. I can see the appeal of a PAX class full of the top guys and we just battle it out all year. I just feel the drawbacks don't make it worth it.

I include myself in this group but almost all of the people that could win in that class also can hold strong opinions on what course favor what cars and PAX multipliers. If we started taking PAX seriously, and we would, suddenly just being good enough won't be OK. If we ran a course like on Feb 10th with a PAX class I would be the first one complaining. It would be impossible for me to out PAX someone with acceleration like Joe or Ken. I'm sure this works both ways. On some courses an S4 Miata/MR2 is completely unbeatable. We can be fighting for FTD with the 2nd softest PAX.

Running a PAX class also hurts class participation. Every PAX class competitor is one less person in a normal class. I really like the good class sizes we have in FAST. Bigger groups attract more people. I will sign up for events with other clubs just because I see my class has a good size field with some fast guys mixed in. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

Stay on the topic of weakening a classes, giving others a chance at a class win just voids the point of racing. I'm all for making class fair for the cars. Fair for the drivers is the drivers problem. If we want to do something like that I would think a novice class is a better way to go.

[Native]

I'm seeing even some of the harshest opponents of PAX asking "where did I finish in the PAX???" And just generally taking note of the PAX results.

Several of our fastest drivers are already "competing for fastest PAX". If you guys would compete in a PAX class, it would be easy enough to create one for you.

I look at PAX results, and then move on. I say that, as I don't have a huge investment here. But I will say, if you start paying someone for something they do for fun, it now becomes work. If folks are having fun casually playing with PAX, and no one is demanding a full-on PAX class, leave it be. And I agree with points made above about thinning other classes.

[Loren]

Hey, we're not going to make a PAX class that nobody wants. So far, nobody is interested.

[jbrannon7]

Aren't all classes ego classes?

No, many clubs call the PAX class the "PRO" class. If that isn't an ego trip I don't know what is.

[twistedwankel]

When I ran stock 'prepped' GS cars I always did well in PAX. As my cars got faster CS, BS, SM not so good anymore. Not a lot of air at the top of the cloud.

I could see someone taking any number of HS or GS light cars and putting some radical tires/shocks/bars/exhaust on and doing really well in a PAX class for not much bolt on money. Look what Mike did with his old Hybrid thingie.

Should try out a PAX/Pro class at a Classic event and see if anyone salutes? I think to be accurate as Drew pointed out that proper SCCA classing and PAX would have to be used for the cars and only count their first 3 runs? I think SCCA adds 10cones to all remaining runs now. At a Classic this is no issue as people jump cars anyhow after a few runs. It doesn't cost anything to the groups as guys are recording their car numbers on other classes of cars now for the results so they are skewed now.

Build it and they will play baseball, grow corn, or come or something?

[Jamie]

I think to be accurate as Drew pointed out that proper SCCA classing and PAX would have to be used for the cars....

Proper SCCA classing won't make "FAST PAX" more accurate, and certainly won't make the real PAX more accurate, because we're not using SCCA preparation rules. Our looser rules allow more modifications, so what's been calculated from SCCA event data is meaningless except for cars prepared to that stricter standard. Unless he's saying class the cars using SCCA preparation rules...in which case, a good portion of our "stock" cars will find themselves in ST or SP, and our "modified" cars in Prepared, with significantly more difficult index multipliers.

[twistedwankel]

Unless he's saying class the cars using SCCA preparation rules...in which case, a good portion of our "stock" cars will find themselves in ST or SP, and our "modified" cars in Prepared, with significantly more difficult index multipliers.

Yes. You want to be a Pro you have to class your car correctly to SCCA rules/PAX. Anyone that good knows their SCCA class all ready.

[AScoda]

I wasn't implying that we use any more scca rules than we already do. Which is really just an easy way for people to find their class with us. I have no idea what class my car is in SCCA. I was only mentioning that because I have an M2 car, but voluntarily run in M0. So if we are going to compare pax, my time should be calculated with M2 multiplier instead of M0. I don't know if anyone else is running a higher class. It may be just me.
I can figure out my own pax, and do, for funsies.

[JasonS]

I agree with Phillip on this one. The drawbacks don't seem to outweigh the benefit. How about awarding stickers for Pax and making a "King of Pax t-shirt" for bragging rights that could be calculated at the end of the season but outside of the normal class system. That would still fuel healthy competition and leave the classes untouched. To Drew's point I think it would be more fair to class to the car for the PAX but I can imagine that could get tricky to have a car basically classed twice per event, or Drew could just man up and deal with a higher classed PAX

[Loren]

We already do a PAX FTD.

And... you either want a PAX class, or you don't. If you want the shirt... you're asking for the class!

The only real downside is that it does take competitors from other classes. But, honestly, not very many. And one of the arguments I keep hearing is that "noobs in slow cars aren't going to come back if they get their ass handed to them". So, getting the fastest drivers out of several classes would be a GOOD thing in that regard. (even though it makes for "hollow victories")

I still say that the fastest drivers in every class are mostly looking at the PAX to see how they compared to the OTHER fastest drivers in the club (assuming they have a competitive and correctly-classed car that PAX sort of works with). For instance, Philip doesn't care that he beat anyone (other than Jason) in his own class... he's looking to see how he fared against Hackett and Marion, etc. To me, it makes perfect sense for you guys to compete head-to-head in the same class.

Think of this the same way you would something like "well, Philip bought a Corvette, he's no longer in S4." That's the way most competitors will see it. Philip is just no longer in their class. And until they get good enough to start winning their class and creeping up ithe PAX ranks and paying, that's how they're going to see it. "Damn, I'm glad Philip's not in my class any more, now maybe I've got a shot at the podium!"

Anyway, I'm not going to twist your arms. You guys don't want it, that's fine. I just wanted to bring it up because we'd discussed it while back, and now we've actually got some PAX data to look at... and you guys HAVE been looking at it.

[AScoda]

FWIW, If we did decide to do a pax class. I would probably run there.
Don't know where I will be next season anyway. Rowen is in S class now, and if Mike decides to run his Porsche in S, I'll go back to M2.