Moving to M2

[JasonS]

Well, I did a thing. Finally got tired of the stock tune and picked up an Accessport and tune for my WRX. Ill hold off on flashing until after this season ends but next season I'll be competing in M2.

So now the questions start. Where to start. Where should I invest? First stop is camber. Going to get some camber plates with a starting point around 2.8 degrees. Up in the air with the rest. Coilovers will happen eventually. Most likely Billstien B16's. Just afraid of doing harm rather than good. This is my first time trying to set up a car for autocross and there aren't many other WRX's racers in our circle for me to lean on. I know the front end needs help, way too much understeer. If I could have the back of the car stay the way it is forever that would be just fine. I'm about convinced the car is unspinable, or at least I've never even gotten close to feeling like it might spin. The only issue the back has is wheel lift. After reading through Dan's posts I think I can sort that out with coilover settings but again, I'm new to all that so it will take some trial and error. Maybe wider wheels? 17x9 lightweight wheels?

There is a lot of people saying rear sways cause WAY too much rear wheel lift in stock form. Would the coilovers with a correctly set up droop balance that out making sways another viable option? Past that, I just flat out don't know. Not worrying about power adders at this point. May get a downpipe somewhere down the road but no time soon. What else is out there? I know there isn't a ton of awd'ers out there but any input would be appreciated. Dan, what has worked for you?

[Loren]

Sounds like you're on the right track.

My philosophy is generally to "let the car tell you what it needs". It's easy to open a catalog and throw a bunch of parts at a car. Better to just think "what does the car need?" Work on its deficiencies one step at a time. Learn what each modification you're doing does for you... and doesn't do for you.

AWD is a lot like FWD in how it behaves. Heavy in the front, natural tendency toward understeer. With FWD, you can "cheat" and put a big rear swaybar on the car that goes a long way towards reducing understeer. You could do the same with AWD, but as you noted, it causes rear wheel lift. Not a problem with FWD, the rear isn't doing anything, anyway. But, when the rear tires are driven, now you have the potential for breaking drive axles and such when that wheel goes from free-spinning to gripping the pavement.

Talk to Dan. He's done a lot of research on how to set up his Evo, and seems to be having good results.

Since you already have your first power upgrade on-hand, start with that. Give yourself a couple of events to establish a baseline for "how much did I gain from this?" Then move on to suspension. One change at a time, as much as you can stand it. That way you learn what each change does for you.

I'd hold off on doing tires and wheels. Why? Because it's really cool to know just how much you can improve with JUST suspension mods! You could slap wider tires on there and instantly be a little quicker. But, dialing in the suspension first, you learn just how much was left on the table. How much MORE could you be getting from the current wheel & tire setup?

[twistedwankel]

You are screwed. Bad idea.

[JasonS]

You are screwed. Bad idea.

Care to elaborate? Not really too concerned with losing. Especially since Drew said he may return to M2. Worried for the car?

[twistedwankel]

You are awesome in your DS car. You should move on to other venues. Like Philip "the incredible" in ES in SCCA. "M" is pandora's box of $$$$$$ to get nowhere.

If you want totally lose your ass you should drive one of my shitbag crapola cars that Farm Truck cannot keep out of the dirt in Dunnellon for a season. There is life after FAST for great drivers.
The Mayor of Dougopolous says "move on" and yet stay where your anchor is.

[JasonS]

That's an interesting take and I appreciate the input. I've considered doing some scca stuff but as of now I don't see the point. I feel pretty confident it wont turn me into a pro. Never gonna get paid to race or anything. So if that is the case it will always be just for fun. Why not have my fun with FAST that's a lot more flexible with classing and if I ever do compete in an scca type event I'll just deal with whatever class I land in. It's not like I'm going to step into scca and go to nationals or anything. That could change with time but the "mods" i have in mind can easily be removed. Not planning anything crazy.

Put another way.. where is this "somewhere" staying is DS will take me?

[twistedwankel]

You were concerned enough to not miss any events to finish first in FAST except in the rain once. You care about winning!!! Maybe you need a crazy co-driver? I'm crazy So are most of FAST people. Too bad they moved your car out of CS as I'm thinking about running there next season with 2 year old DW tires Or maybe S1 with 2+ year old RE-71's for a t-shirt and keeping my number? No idea when I got stuck with that number? Must have been having too much fun?

Maybe NGTN (Not Going To Nationals) is a new FAST "loser" class?

[Native]

Don't let The Mayor sway you. Have fun in M2, do the mods, learn the tuning, take him up on his offer to drive his cars, and beat him. Just don't go off in the process...only one Farm Truck.

[Loren]

Maybe NGTN (Not Going To Nationals) is a new FAST "loser" class?

WTF?

[JasonS]

You care about winning!!!

This is true, but being classed against Mike Lawson has taught me that I wouldn't do much winning in SCCA DS anyway

I usually win DS with around a 1 sec advantage. Mike would beat me by another 1.5 to 2 seconds. Leads me to believe I wouldn't stand a chance.

[Loren]

We all get bored with what we're doing sometimes. And we all have our own solutions to that problem.

Some choose to pursue higher levels of autocross competition. Some choose to pursue higher levels of racing. Some choose to buy a car that's in a different class. Some choose to modify their car to be faster in their current class. Some choose to optimize their car to be competitive in a modified class. Some choose to mod their car just because they LIKE modding cars. And some choose to take up golf or bowling or fishing or something.

Thanks for sticking around, Jason! We're glad you find us worthy of your time.

[JasonS]

Thanks for sticking around, Jason! We're glad you find us worthy of your time.

And thanks for running a great organization. FAST is the only club I have raced with so I have no basis for comparison but outside of installing air conditioning at our sites I'm not sure how it could be better.

[Native]

outside of installing air conditioning at our sites I'm not sure how it could be better.

[jbrannon7]

If you want to play in M2 build your car following Loren's advice with the small steps thing and use this SCCA class as a guideline. Street Touring® Hatchback (STH). I basically did that with my BMW, one step at a time, mostly due to funding, to a modified street tire SCCA class, mine was STR. Yes FAST rules allow more, but SCCA allows enough of the things you want to take a while to get there. Then you can spend more time racing with 2 clubs at Brooksville. Seat time is the best mod you can make.

[CaptainSquirts]

IMO, do the move into M2. You most likely won't ace like you always do in s2 but now you will have "real" competition which makes it way more exciting when fighting for the top spots. Hell whenever mark runs i know I won't beat him but if I ever get 1.5 second near his time I'm happy . But like most say, do one mod at a time. But if you have multiple changes that require alignments after the changes I would then just throw them all on so 1 alignment is required. Might be. Good idea how to learn how to do your own alignment also, saved me tons of money.

[CaptainSquirts]

Dan, what has worked for you?

Only thing for rear droop that has worked for me is helper/tender springs on my coilovers. Coilovers themselves didn't do enough, actually made it lift more since the spring rates were a lot higher and had less bump when the car was static.

[JasonS]

Only thing for rear droop that has worked for me is helper/tender springs on my coilovers. Coilovers themselves didn't do enough, actually made it lift more since the spring rates were a lot higher and had less bump when the car was static.

I've read through you post a lot but most of it is still pretty foreign to me. I get the concepts but it will be another thing entirely to make it work on the car. The other issue I want to tackle is front wheel spin when coming out of corners, ie turnournds. I get a lot. I assume the same principle applies and I will need more droop in the front as well. I have no complaints about transitioning. My car feels great in slaloms. If I could reduce understeer on turn in and wheel spin on exits I would be totally satisfied.

[Loren]

The problem with suspension tuning is that everything effects everything else.

The easy solution to front wheel spin when exiting a turn is a bigger rear swaybar to transfer more weight to the front. (also stiffer rear shocks... and stiffer rear springs) But, the side effect of that is that the inside rear tire lifts, and as it does, all roll resistance moves to the front. So, you need more roll resistance in the front to balance it out. Everything is a compromise. You have to get enough of this without causing too much of that. With AWD, you don't want inside rear tire lift, so if you add the rear swaybar that you want... you have to chase things like Dan is... how to I get enough suspension droop travel in the rear so that inside rear wheel stays in contact with the pavement?

And, of course, most of the really good autocross setup advice that you read is from hardcore autocrossers, so they're not worried about street manners... ONLY what improves their times. You have to always balance that with your personal goals.

Personally, for a street car, I try to main as much "independence" and "compliance" as I can in the suspension. I want the suspension to be able to move as it was designed to. If you go crazy stiff on the swaybars, you're removing independence... one side moves, the other side moves with it, makes for a rougher street ride. So, you want to rely a little more on stiffer springs and shocks when you're in a modified class that allows you to do that. You can go too far with that, too. But, if you have adjustable shocks, you can at least turn the damping down on the street and get better ride quality.

When you get things "close", you can make simple adjustments to tire pressure and shock settings to go from "street mode" to "autocross mode". Sometimes it takes a while to get things "close", though.

[CaptainSquirts]

I've read through you post a lot but most of it is still pretty foreign to me.

Don't worry, a lot of stuff about suspension is still foreign to me as well... Best thing you can do is ask questions and people will glady try to explain it to you. I've asked an @ssload of questions and surprised Loren hasn't just muted me yet or something . Honestly I would just do the camber on the fronts first. Now I saw you mentioning plates and coilovers. Don't get plates that fit your current struts and then go coilovers and then the plates don't fit them. Also buy it once and buy it right, so you can get options on camber/caster plates together. Me personally I would get something that has both. For the droop, most of the people driving fwd, awd seems to not care about it and say its not bad. I personally have no idea if it's "bad" but I didn't like my wheel lifting, dropping and in my head I thought well if both rear tires are down it should be a positive rather than a negative?

So if you were to go start modding, I would do the power and one suspension thing. But if you did go coilovers down the road, any suspension work you have done will go out the window and you pretty much are starting all over. Like Loren said, any change you do is pretty much a compromise of everything else. It's a lot of hands and trial and error if you are are willing to try to improve your setup.

I would come up with a list of mods you have in mind and if you need help deciding on which to do first people will give their input with pros and cons I'm sure.

roll resistance

There you go saying another term that I've never heard of, time to find out what it means....

[Loren]

The problem I see with lifting a rear tire on an AWD car is shock-loading the drivetrain when it comes back down. Seems like a recipe for a broken axle or rear CV joint or diff. From a handling perspective, it's not a big deal at all.