Dedicated autocross site

[markzeronine]

It does have me curious though, with one more of our regular locations gone and planes closing in on a breaking up brooksville runway, what will our future bay area autocross look like??

That's a damned good question. We keep batting around the idea of trying to buy/build an autocross facility. But, it takes a ton of money to do that. How much would you contribute?

Hmm I dont have a whole lot to my name, but i love the sound of it, and it's something I would definitely invest in

[Loren]

We keep batting around the idea of trying to buy/build an autocross facility. But, it takes a ton of money to do that. How much would you contribute?

Hmm I dont have a whole lot to my name, but i love the sound of it, and it's something I would definitely invest in

It's one of those ideas that's starting to seem more and more like a necessity for our sport to stay healthy.

[markzeronine]

Absolutely, there's no shortage of FAST entries and we would have the power to rent to other clubs at our digression as well

[Loren]

Renting the facility to other clubs and for other activities would be a requirement. Location is an important factor, both in price of real-estate and zoning, and for easy access to a variety of clubs from several local population centers.

[Loren]

Oh, it's been a quiet back-end discussion for years. But, it's becoming more of a "necessity". We're one government board of directors decision away from losing Brooksville at any time for nearly any reason. (or no reason at all) If that happens, autocross in the immediate vicinity of Tampa becomes almost non-existent!

It would be interesting to know how many people would contribute to efforts to make such a thing happen. Say, we set up a "GoFundMe" or something? How much would you contribute to at least help us get started?

Once it's built, assuming it's properly built, maintained and in a good location, keeping it booked for autocross and other purposes shouldn't be too difficult. It should pay for itself, maybe even turn a reasonable profit with some marketing. But, raising seed capital is the hard part.

[Jamie]

You're talking about finding 10+ acres of well-drained, fairly level land, clearing, paving, and maintaining it. Something more than weekend rentals are necessary to finance and sustain that.
If this gets serious, it's probably worth talking to the folks running the Solo program within SCCA San Francisco Region -- they've been trying to find a way to do this for at least 15 years. I know they came close a couple of times, and supposedly, there's something in the works now.

[Loren]

Things are always a lot more complicated when a "non-profit" organization is involved. And, they're in CA, likely trying to build somewhere near San Francisco. Just buying the land out there has got to be insanely expensive.

We can get land here between Tampa and Lakeland (for instance), something on the order of 20 acres for around $200k. And then there are weird tax rules... you buy more land than you need, and grow hay, or graze sheep on it... makes a huge difference in taxes. I don't remember all of the details, but I've looked into it in the past.

Paving is the bigger hurdle. But, I actually drew up a plan based on facilities such as the Tire Rack test pad and the Gainesville Raceway kart track (both of which are used for autocross) that didn't require FULL paving of the site. sort of a wide, and vey configurable kart-track kind of thing. Paving maybe 1/3 of the area rather than all of it. But, even with that, I estimated about $500k in land prep and paving.

Another $100k for miscelaneous stuff like fencing, structures and other amenities, and we're at about $800k. YES, that's a lot of money. But, in the business world, it's not an insurmountable number.

Better still, we've recently learned that we may be able to do a lot of the prep work, and possibly even the paving, ourselves. That could cut the paving costs in half! Now we're getting closer to a $500k total.

On the rental side, the worse things get (and they're always getting worse), the more this facility is going to be used by other clubs. But, figure Brooksville is booked probably 6 weekend days per month by autocross clubs, plus at least a couple weekdays per month by law enforcement and emergency services. They also rent to RC place clubs and other users. So, call it 8 days per month at $800. ($800-1500 seems to be the going rate for autocross sites... Brooksville happens to be less than that, but our facility would be a lot nicer) $6400/mo. Almost $77k per year income. If we had a $500k loan, it could be paid back in as little as 10 years.

And that's assuming we start with farm land. If we were to get lucky and come up with an industrial facility that's already got some usable pavement... who knows? We could luck into something for $300k that needs $50k in repairs/modifications to make it autocrossable. And then improve it and expand it as we go.

The more seed capital we can come up with, the less we have to borrow, and the more likely it is to happen. We're not ready to "jump" just yet, thus we've never started a GoFundMe or anthing like that. But, curiousity is there. If we DID ask for money, how much would we get? Figuring that this facility would affect (and possibly become one of the only options for) autocrossers from Tampa to Daytona, Ocala to Sarasota... that's a big area. Lots of people. There is potential.

Nobody ever said they thought this would be easy. But, it's not impossible. And we're getting to the point that it may be a necessity.

[JasonS]

Other ideas I have seen to help generate income for such an idea

Drivers ed
Motorcycle school
RC cars/planes
Drone school
Craft fairs/farmers markets
RV/Boat/Car shows

This would be a ton to handle, not something that could be run part time. It would take dedicated resources and lots of infrastructure.

I also seem to remember there are all types of regulations when you build a lot that size. Drainage, lighting, environmental impact... The list goes on and on. Just doesn't seem viable for a local club. It would take huge amounts of backing and community support and I can't help but think getting those things would be a challenge.

[Loren]

As mentioned, nobody ever said it would be easy.

But, while you guys think of FAST as a "small local club", and you should... over the years, it has become a "successful small local business". Behind the scenes, this is likely what makes FAST run better than a lot of "clubs". Steve and I run it as a business, and we're good at it. So, as a small business... with 10 years of history... there is potential that we could, with a good business plan and some seed capital, borrow the money to make this happen.

There's a lot to it. We know.

[JasonS]

There is no doubt that you and Steve and whoever else has been involved in the past have done well with the business. If that's the mentality then I say go for it and would be interested in getting involved. It seems to me that with the successful history of FAST and a solid business plan, a loan wouldn't be that hard to come by. A fairground type business model would be pretty similar to what is being discussed here. Lots of varied types of events and uses. So marketing, insurance, maintenance, reservation system, accounting, Governance Risk and Compliance.. That's a full on business, and I can see the potential. Wont be quick or easy but it does sound intriguing.

[Rawkkrawler]

If this gets some traction, I have a tremendous amount of construction resources available. My brother and I were going to build a motocross park just north of Dade City, we actually already had the land to do so. The plan was to create a campground to accompany the site to allow for full weekend events. We priced out utilities, insurance, build costs, and even on site medics for big events. Obviously more risk with dirt bikes and side by sides. We went as far as looking into local food truck vendors as well as onsite concessions. For a small handful of reasons it didn’t happen, but mostly because I didn’t personally have the passion for this exact type of sport. As a financial backer, I’d want to love the idea. But this, this seams like fun!

[aw614]

How is the land situation north of Tampa in Hernando and Citrus Counties? That seems to be where the cheaper land is, especially the further north you get from Tampa

[280z-hab]

I love this idea and I am an environmental consultant that helps developers with these types of commercial/industrial builds. An interesting idea would be looking for a contaminated site and get a Brownfields designation, sign a BSRA, and layer tax and redevelopment incentives through Florida's Brownfields Redevelopment Program and enroll in VCTC. Dont want to wait for your Tax credits? There are brokers who will pay 70-90 cents on the dollar if you a need cash infusion.

I also do all the pre-purchase environmental due diligence and environmental permitting (ERPs, stormwater, gopher tortis surveys, archaeological sites, wetlands, ect.). I have a buddy who owns a paintball field and I am going to pick his brain about his business (another business that needs a lot of land with customers primarily on the weekends). I may be PM-ing a few of yall...

[markzeronine]

[AScoda]

I don't want to derail the new site discussion, but it may be easier to get a commitment to keeping the site we have.
Maybe we could get a long term contract with the airport. It may have to come along with an offer to pay more per event. Along those lines, additional rental fees could be used for maintenance. Assuming we could raise some capital, we could fix the problems with the runway at no cost to the airport providing they would allow it. A concrete contractor could fix the damage and maybe even provide a nice level pad for a covered area for lunch and sun reprieve. Bathrooms would be nice, but there is likely no plumbing anywhere. If there was 60 years ago when it was an active runway, it's probably unusable. Getting a commitment from the airport would be a must. Can't put money into something that they can yank on a whim.

[Native]

Keep it coming...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpnBAd2tSwo

[Loren]

I don't want to derail the new site discussion, but it may be easier to get a commitment to keeping the site we have.
Maybe we could get a long term contract with the airport.

Great minds think alike. We are already preparing to explore that option. I'd love something like a 10-year lease on the old airstrip, even if it meant we had to "manage" it and handle renting it to other clubs. It would be good to know we had a lock on it for whatever period of time.

[Jamie]

Things are always a lot more complicated when a "non-profit" organization is involved. And, they're in CA, likely trying to build somewhere near San Francisco. Just buying the land out there has got to be insanely expensive.

Central Valley...just merely expensive. But they've been building the site fund since the early '90s, because of the same trends...sites going away. The deal that just fell through was for a dual-use site in conjunction with the Stockton Fairgrounds.

We can get land here between Tampa and Lakeland (for instance), something on the order of 20 acres for around $200k. And then there are weird tax rules... you buy more land than you need, and grow hay, or graze sheep on it... makes a huge difference in taxes. I don't remember all of the details, but I've looked into it in the past.

Paving is the bigger hurdle. But, I actually drew up a plan based on facilities such as the Tire Rack test pad and the Gainesville Raceway kart track (both of which are used for autocross) that didn't require FULL paving of the site. sort of a wide, and vey configurable kart-track kind of thing. Paving maybe 1/3 of the area rather than all of it. But, even with that, I estimated about $500k in land prep and paving.

Meh. I used to run up at Gainesville when Central Florida Region used it regularly. In its own way, it was just as limiting as a runway: pretty soon, you're running more or less the same course every time. Plus, it's not much use for anything else, unless you intend to operate as a kart track or test track of some sort. That's possible - I don't know of any paved kart tracks between Ocala and Parrish, but I don't know what the market is, either. More pavement is better for all sorts of reasons.

Another $100k for miscelaneous stuff like fencing, structures and other amenities, and we're at about $800k. YES, that's a lot of money. But, in the business world, it's not an insurmountable number.

Power? No power? (Not essential for us...depends on what else you want to attract.) Water? (Probably....) Sewer? (Like power...but if we have it, would need room for a septic field.)

Better still, we've recently learned that we may be able to do a lot of the prep work, and possibly even the paving, ourselves. That could cut the paving costs in half! Now we're getting closer to a $500k total.

Do tell....

On the rental side, the worse things get (and they're always getting worse), the more this facility is going to be used by other clubs. But, figure Brooksville is booked probably 6 weekend days per month by autocross clubs, plus at least a couple weekdays per month by law enforcement and emergency services. They also rent to RC place clubs and other users. So, call it 8 days per month at $800. ($800-1500 seems to be the going rate for autocross sites... Brooksville happens to be less than that, but our facility would be a lot nicer) $6400/mo. Almost $77k per year income. If we had a $500k loan, it could be paid back in as little as 10 years.

In my experience, government outfits like to stick with using government or quasi-government (like SPC) facilities, and there are enough of those around here to soak up that business. Plus, if you're building pavement for 25-ton fire trucks, your site prep becomes much more expensive. Cycle schools could be more lucrative...those guys are always looking for places. How much more would it cost to build some garage space for exotic car storage or similar...link that up with your concept for exotic car autocrossing?

And that's assuming we start with farm land. If we were to get lucky and come up with an industrial facility that's already got some usable pavement... who knows? We could luck into something for $300k that needs $50k in repairs/modifications to make it autocrossable. And then improve it and expand it as we go.

Though you guys had exhausted those sites....

The more seed capital we can come up with, the less we have to borrow, and the more likely it is to happen. We're not ready to "jump" just yet, thus we've never started a GoFundMe or anthing like that. But, curiousity is there. If we DID ask for money, how much would we get? Figuring that this facility would affect (and possibly become one of the only options for) autocrossers from Tampa to Daytona, Ocala to Sarasota... that's a big area. Lots of people. There is potential.

...and for the area, surprisingly few autocrossers. But maybe you can make it available for cars and coffee....

Seriously, what about the folks who do the classic car auctions and swap meets out in Zephyrhills? They don't need a big paved pad, but if someone was willing to build and maintain one there for joint use, they might be amenable to partnering up. All the ancillaries -- fencing, utilities, etc -- already exist. Other than the twice-annual auction and Bugfest, there doesn't seem to be anything going on out there. I'm not sure if that's a private site or the city owns it...anyone know?

[Jamie]

I don't want to derail the new site discussion, but it may be easier to get a commitment to keeping the site we have.
Maybe we could get a long term contract with the airport. It may have to come along with an offer to pay more per event. Along those lines, additional rental fees could be used for maintenance. Assuming we could raise some capital, we could fix the problems with the runway at no cost to the airport providing they would allow it. A concrete contractor could fix the damage and maybe even provide a nice level pad for a covered area for lunch and sun reprieve. Bathrooms would be nice, but there is likely no plumbing anywhere. If there was 60 years ago when it was an active runway, it's probably unusable. Getting a commitment from the airport would be a must. Can't put money into something that they can yank on a whim.

I guarantee they're getting more money for storing old airliners at the end of the runway than they ever would from us.

The problem the airport would face -- even if willing -- is investing inside their boundaries for non-aviation uses. I think the RV guys ran into the same issue. We look at that runway as a derelict piece of pavement, but until the airport does something that permanently renders it unfit for aviation use, it still factors into calculations for BKV's slice of the Airport and Airway Trust Fund. Look in any aviation publication, and those surfaces show up as closed for use, but they still show up. That's why the airport won't give us permission patch it...any maintenance would have to be done to FAA standards. Letting us use it as-is, and overlooking anyone doing minor cold-patching is one thing. Entering an agreement to convert it to non-aviation use...don't hold your breath.

[twistedwankel]

I've always thought of abandoned mining sites as a perfect solution. Below ground level with noise diverting side earthen banks. Noise abatement for blasting and heavy equipment. Not zoned for residential areas.

Mosaic and Cementix come to mind. Any old used up quarry operation with stone foundation will work and a water pit for drainage. In theory cheap as useless for other than grazing when restored with the stored topsoil banks?

Doubt anyone has ever approached these companies with a long term recreational lease agreement? Hernando County is sort of helpful to those companies who donate rather heavily to the Republican Party candidates for Commissioners. Politics will be involved in any solution. Need a PAC.