Make Chispa Healthy Again...

[friskyflea]

I'll make this short. Chispa is at 75% and side-lined. After barking up the wrong tree for a bit, I now know the cylinder 2 problems are serious, as in new head serious, or new engine (haven't decided yet). I have to price a whole bunch of items/parts/spirits, and talk to a couple more people. Weigh in all pros and cons of 2 separate approaches.

Should it come to a full engine swap, can I have a show of hands of who would be willing to assist in the surgery? If it comes to that, Loren has offered his garage as a surgery suite.

All of this is still in the planning/budgeting stages. Full story to be revealed later.

[JasonS]

I'd be in depending on timing.

[Loren]

M4 is surprisingly hard on cars. Multiple Festiva engines, Festiva transmission, Insight hub, Mirage engine, now a Fit engine.

Maybe we're just trying harder than the other classes?

[Native]

I'm good for a few cuts and scrapes. Just gotta plan ahead if I'm gonna bleed.

[dbeng]

I'm happy to help, work schedule permitting. I can also bring the engine lift.
Dan.

[Magooiii]

I’m in

[Carracer]

I'm in.

[BrilloHeadBen]

If I can budget the time, I'm down.

[Rawkkrawler]

M4 is surprisingly hard on cars.

M4 seems to know how to push hard and suck less!

Oh, and I'm in!

[friskyflea]

The usual suspects gather... thank you guys. I have spent the last day pricing necessary items and looking at what else would be prudent to do. All hoses, water pump, thermostat, intake and exhaust gaskets, crankshaft seal(s) - can only find one mating to the transmission, not a "front and rear" as I was told, so have to get more info on that. Problem is that there are slightly different/multiple names for a few parts. Still have 1 one person to ask to clarify what was texted to me (commas matter folks! I had to detangle some part phrases until they made sense LOL)

I have found a candidate engine with 45.5K miles. Consistently good reviews of business regardless of source (Google +, Yelp, FB) and the place is both an automotive repair and recycling business. They photograph the donor vehicle, drain all fluids, pull the parts and store them in their warehouse, so not exposed to the elements or sitting with degrading fluids. The engine is all ready to be packed and shipped, if I pull the trigger. Yeah, I'll have to pay freight but within driving distance here everything is 100-110K and only $100 less that what the out of state engine is. Monday I'll be fact checking with the VIN number to confirm the mileage claimed fits with the car history and that it was a rear impact as depicted in the photographs. Being that low miles for an '08 model, getting a date on the accident will let me know if I have some wiggle room in the asking price if it's been sitting for a bit because, lets face it, who in their right mind is looking for an engine for an 11 year old econobox? I might be doing them a favor taking it off their shelves... In the meantime, doing lots of Stay tuned!

PS - found this little bit of info... "The federal government offers VIN checks, free of charge, through the National Insurance Crime Bureau website https://www.nicb.org/how-we-help/vincheck, which provides data on the vehicle’s current state of title and last title date, brand history, odometer reading, total loss history, and salvage history. The VINCheck tool permits five searches within a 24-hour period per IP address. Note that records can take up to six months to appear in the federal database and only show up if the event was recorded by an insurance company. "

... VINCheck® Total Loss Record
VIN: JHMGD37608S026076 has been identified as a vehicle listed in the VINCheck® Salvage Records.

Date of loss 2011-10-19
Cause of loss - Collision

It's been sitting for a while

[friskyflea]

Oh... and forgot to say, regarding

M4 is surprisingly hard on cars. Multiple Festiva engines, Festiva transmission, Insight hub, Mirage engine, now a Fit engine.
Maybe we're just trying harder than the other classes?

Maybe because we insist on making racecars out of sow's ears?

[aw614]

it might depend on the weekend, did you investigate further if that problem we talked about on facebook was the issue?

The 100k to 110k mile motors are iffy especially if they end up having that same issue

[Loren]

Used engines are an interesting thing. Here are some thoughts... I'll try to use commas where appropriate.

First, I'd take an 80-100,000 mile engine that was in a running car LAST WEEK over a 40,000 mile engine that's been sitting for a year unless I knew that the stored engine was properly prepared for storage. You mentioned draining fluids, and that's all fine and dandy... but, what's going to kill an engine in storage is RUST in all the wrong places. Good storage practice would be to put some engine oil down in each of the spark plug holes to help prevent rust on the piston rings. Perhaps to spray any "bare metal" surface that you can reach with a film of WD-40. And then most importantly, SEAL every opening to keep moisture and critters out.

I helped someone swap in a low-mileage Miata engine once. It had been resting for 2 years. And, upon installation, it wouldn't start. After much screwing around (not unlike the process you went through diagnosing your #2 cylinder), we eventually did a compression test and found that most of the cylinders were around 80 psi, and the low one was 65. No wonder it wouldn't start! Piston rings had rusted and stuck. We opted to try to "heal" it. We filled each cylinder with a mix of something like ATF and Marvel Mystery Oil, and cranked the engine over daily just to move it around. Left it for over a week. And that DID work. We were able to start and drive the car after that. But, the oil control rings were still fried. It burned a lot of oil and was eventually rebuilt. That was one of those Miatas that went through several owners in the Miata club... and was dubbed Frankenmiata.

I digress. The point is... if an engine has been stored, HOW it was stored is very important. Probably more important than how many miles are on it.

If it just came out of a car, then you at least know that it was probably running well up to that point. It's a Honda, it'll run forever if you treat it right. So, if you get a 100k mile engine... just be sure the TB is changed, and as you learned... adjust the valves. That, plus all the usual maintenance stuff... should be fine!

[friskyflea]

The points are valid. I wondered about the perils of dry storing an engine and figured I would ask Tod tomorrow when I talk to him. I'll call them and ask them about what measures were taken above and beyond. It seems to be a large operation and are mechanics as well, so I would think they would know how to do it properly. They would do hundreds of engines a year (they also rebuild) and I would think they would handle and store them properly. Even though they have a warranty/repair policy, it would be a major pain in the ass to deal with a DOA engine - don't think they would want that kind of customer feedback/review. As for the local 100K engines, have their previous owners been nice to them for those 100Ks??? If not, you'd have to open it up and look for evidence of poor care, and deal with its aftermath. I envision sludge, carbon deposits and bits of metal glitter in places where it shouldn't be... Both options seem to have risks. The salvage yards around here keep the engines IN the cars, where they are parked, so they too have been sitting since the accident, fluid status unknown, often not under cover but outside. They are not from freshly wrecked cars; finding a recently retired to pasture '08 MT Fit engine... odds not stacked in my favor. I would expect far more attention to detail here https://www.strickerbros.com/AboutUs than what I have seen nearby. Playing the odds and statistics, OH looks better than FL.

[friskyflea]

it might depend on the weekend, did you investigate further if that problem we talked about on facebook was the issue?

The 100k to 110k mile motors are iffy especially if they end up having that same issue

That was not the problem. What I found regarding plugs/coil packs getting spit out was occurring in a very few number of cars, happening anywhere from 45 to 100k miles, *before* the first plug change, so it was from the factory install. The percentage appears to have been very small - it doesn't even register in the the various "frequent problems with cars" lists and sites. That was one of the reasons I went with a Fit when I bought it in 09-10 even though it was pricier than its competitors. That and the fact that it has side curtain airbags standard... unheard of back then in an economy car. The most common complaint, that the driver side arm rest breaks away... (truth! go look at mine...).

All it would take would be one robot arm with the wrong programming, or a hung over human assembler, to miss the torque spec in a number of cars. I would be curious to try to gather the VIN # on those few cars and check them against the production log (I assume someone keeps track of that, no?)...

[Loren]

Let's hope you've found the right source for an engine. Reputation speaks volumes. They're probably doing a lot of things right.

[friskyflea]

Trust me I am going to query them like I'm conducting the Spanish Inquisition. I'd be willing to pay for extra gaskets if they can take off the head and/or valve cover and give everything a look-sy and even go as far as dismantle the pistons so they can be checked for what you observed, and new rings installed if necessary, before shipping. So long as you have all the right tools (like the ring compressor tubey-thing, whatever that is called) and plenty of assembly lube, it appears to be a straight forward job. Might look tedious unless you approach it with amazement as to what is actually happening inside that cylinder, a cuzzillion times a second. Not just the explosion/combustion, but the valve dance and the oil ballet... Then it's should feel like a work of art (cue in Clair the Lune back music). Maybe the British guy in the videos just makes it sound sexy **Time to lay off the wine**

I shall be careful. I even have some Cincinnati OH friends I'm going to contact in the next 24 hrs to see if, by chance, they know anything about the business - I'll spare no possible avenues of inquiry.

[Loren]

You're talking about an engine rebuild at that point, and they would charge accordingly. The whole point of getting a good used engine is to AVOID all of that labor expense and have a reliable factory-built engine.

However, there are some things you can do WITHOUT disassembling the engine. Digital USB bore-scope cameras can be had for cheap these days. With one of those, you can look right down the spark plug hole (or into the intake or exhaust port) and get a good look inside. You can rotate the engine and see most of all of the bores, and look for scoring or rust lines where a ring may have rusted against the cylinder wall, as well as "normal" wear.

You could remove the oil pan, pull a bearing cap or two to inspect the condition of the bearings.

I guess your engine supplier MIGHT be willing to do those things for you for a price, and advise you of their findings.

But, going as far as pulling the pistons out, or removing the head just to inspect... that's going a little too far. As I said, you're essentially rebuilding the engine at that point.

[friskyflea]

I have several boroscopes, but the point is to get it done before it ships. Joe mentioned it Friday - had I known I would have brought one, but at that time we were thinking a simple sensor replacement was what was due. And I perfectly understand that disassembling the pistons amounts to a pseudo rebuild. What you do not figure into it is time consumption. It may be totally worth it for me to pay them to do things before shipping, if I deem them necessary after I talk to them and if I consider the charge reasonable. There are not that many engines out there for my car; this is my daily that is down, not just an AX toy, so doing it quickly and in one act, mostly, carries weight in my decision making, which is why I am leaning against just doing the head and chancing the bottom/block. If another problem crops up then it's back to getting people together, finding the days off, car is still down. If it were a horse problem I could take that experimental approach. I can't take several attempts to solve this problem. A well-checked out used engine, if at a bit of a higher cost, will still be the lesser expense v. monthly car payments.

[jbrannon7]

Ask them to rotate the crankshaft and report back, if it rotates easily the cylinders are not rusted.