Da Groj

Dang, I guess the rules are in pretty good shape, nobody's even mentioned any changes for the coming season! It's really late to be talking about this, but if there's anything important to change, we could still squeak it in before the start of the new season.

We'll automatically update to the 2019 SCCA Street classing list as the basis for our classing.

We don't have any other changes in mind. But, we're open to ideas if anyone has any. No guarantee that we'll follow through on your ideas, but we'll discuss as-warranted.

The only shortcoming that comes to mind for me is the never-ending quest to get more action in the S5 class. I think our upper and lower classes will always be outliers. You need a class at the top for "over the top" modded cars and such. And you need a class at the bottom for the stuff that can't compete in the higher classes. There are TONS of those kinds of cars out there, and they do show up at autocrosses... but, the drivers usually either move on to a "better" car, or modify out of Stock, not a lot of people have the dedication to stick with the S5 class.

For 2018-19, we had 11 drivers in S5... and 10 drivers in R1. M0 ended up larger due to several people opting to "class up" just to challenge the handful of regular M0 drivers.

R1 is what it is. FAST is not and never has been a "race tire" group, so we expect R1 to be small. M0 should generally be small, as well. Its purpose is to give the M1 ineligibles a place to go (besides R1). S5... that's the tough one.

We tried allowing non-LSD Miatas (and other ES/GS cars) into the class on 195's. They proved to be (or at least appear to be) overdogs in the class, and we don't really need another "classic Miata" class with S4, M4, M3 and M2 being pretty thick with them already.

The only other thing I can think of, and I'm not even going to suggest that it's a good idea or that we should try it or that it would make a difference at all... just that it's the only thing I can think of... is to open it up to a spec tire of some sort. Either something like "any 400+ TW tire" or just an absurd minimum tire width that wouldn't work for any other class, like 185. I think "any car with no LSD on 185's" in addition to what's already allowed would be fun. Nobody would do it. But, it would be fun if they did. It would make it more like M4 is, where the driver has to try to make the most of what little grip they can get.

I like the idea of building on the something like "any 400+ TW tire" idea. I looked up UHP all-season tires on TR, looks like 500+ TW would be a good cut-off. 0.02

Last I looked, there was actually a ”good" 400 TW all season performance tire. But, just one... And in limited sizes, only 17 and up.

The question is, do you like the idea enough that you'd actually do it?

Loren wrote:The only shortcoming that comes to mind for me is the never-ending quest to get more action in the S5 class.
For 2018-19, we had 11 drivers in S5... and 10 drivers in R1. M0 ended up larger due to several people opting to "class up" just to challenge the handful of regular M0 drivers.

R1 is what it is. FAST is not and never has been a "race tire" group, so we expect R1 to be small.

For whatever reasons, FAST hasn't attracted a mass of older sports cars and sedans in stock form...that too, may just be the nature of the group.

The only other thing I can think of...is to open it up to a spec tire of some sort. Either something like "any 400+ TW tire" or just an absurd minimum tire width that wouldn't work for any other class, like 185. I think "any car with no LSD on 185's" in addition to what's already allowed would be fun. Nobody would do it.

Don't think so? NAs wore 185s all the way through 1997...we'd see S5 turn back into a Miata class, just a different generation. I don't think further restrictions of treadwear would change that...if anything it would tilt the field more towards NA Miatas.

Leave the class stable, and it may pick up. Maybe not. But consider leaving S5 where it is for now.

Oh, leaving it is a strong consideration.

But, a class with only one driver qualified for a trophy at the end of a season is disappointing.

Loren wrote:Oh, leaving it is a strong consideration.

But, a class with only one driver qualified for a trophy at the end of a season is disappointing.

You mean R1, right? That doesn't distress you because you don't identify with the class. S5 distresses you because you do identify with it...but not enough to acquire a car suited for the class and keep it relatively unmodified.

Now, to be fair, I specifically bought the Mirage to compete in S5. Leaving it unmodified just proved to not be an option. When I'm done playing Miata for a while, I may seek another S5 car.

I'm not sure what we could do to help R1 along.

Loren wrote:Now, to be fair, I specifically bought the Mirage to compete in S5. Leaving it unmodified just proved to not be an option.

Sure it was...it just wouldn't have been competitive. Try a '90s or '00s Honda, Mazda, or Toyota. Or if you really want to stray off the beaten path (and can find one), a Pinto.

I'd just gotten out of the Festiva, I wanted something new and reliable that I could just throw shocks and tires at and DRIVE. That's not quite how it worked out, but that was the plan.

But, my personal exploits aren't the topic of this thread. In general, we need a place where HS cars... and maybe other cars that are at that level, such as non HS cars on limited tire... can compete. That's what S5 is for.

I'm not sure that I necessarily agree that a crippled (by tire selection and open diff) Miata is an overdog in S5. Is it the "easy button" for a fun and reasonably competitive car? Sure. Could it be beaten by a proper HS car on wider or better tires? Oh, yes.

The PAX difference between "proper" HS and ES is only .009. That means that on a typical 40-second course, there's only .36 seconds between a FULLY prepared ES car and a FULLY prepared HS car. We're taking away the ES car's limited slip, and putting them on lesser tires (either by width or treadwear). If they still win... they earned it. (just like if I'd have won S5 in my Mirage without putting it upside down... it wouldn't be because the car was competitive, I earned it)

PAX is based on national and large region front runners, which generally means a limited slice of the possible cars in a class. So yes, the Fiesta ST and Civic Si -- "proper HS cars" -- are pretty comparable to the Miata and MR2 Spyder, all other things being similar. We've empirically confirmed that with S4, and were the SCCA classing cars based on PAX, they'd probably move some around. But HS is a huge mass of cars, most of which for PAX is meaningless. Like the Mirage, which was so limited that you just weren't willing to confine your driving to the car's limits.

I also think we've proven that for our courses, narrow tires and open diff aren't all that much of a handicap, unless tires are taken to ridiculous extremes (no one's going to run on 4 space-saver spares). Running at Lakeland might change that, because it opens up more design features and it's a different surface, but I'm still willing to bet that good chassis design overcomes that.

400TW tires in S5...?

Terrible idea...

Says the guy with a brand new set of 195 RE-71s sitting in the garage ready for next season

400 TW would be for "other" cars in class. The legit HS cars would play under the current rules.

Of course, none of this is likely to happen. Just batting around ideas.

I get the intent of this is to make S5 a more inviting class to people and open it to additional cars. I guess the question I have is, would this rule change actually matter to anyone? I think S5's low attendance is mostly just "the nature of the beast", and that the vast majority of people interested in and actively participating in autocross don't own (or have a second car) that isn't an S5 car.

Yeah.

The bigger problem (for S5) is that people who truly appreciate "driving a slow car fast" are rare. Most folks who are into autocross rarely want to drive anything slower than a 1.8 Miata.

dbeng wrote: Says the guy with a brand new set of 195 RE-71s sitting in the garage

Correction, they are actually 205s (stock width for my car), I think I’m losing my mind! It’s been a couple of months since I ordered them

Loren wrote:I'm not sure what we could do to help R1 along.

Have them bring co-drivers more often? Detune Elliot's car again like when he had an electrical issue? Nah, he has always been one of my benchmarks for times. It's an entertaining class that doesn't hit a lot of cones. Too bad more people don't have a tire trailer or back seat for their normal cars extra tires. Could be a future pax class? RP?

Loren wrote:The bigger problem (for S5) is that people who truly appreciate "driving a slow car fast" are rare. Most folks who are into autocross rarely want to drive anything slower than a 1.8 Miata.

Part of this problem is (using SCCA classing) there will apparently always be an obvious over dog in most stock classes as they yearly shuffle the deck. Too many years of cars are covered in SCCA to remain stock and still get parts let alone be competitive. (Thus M.) Too often preference is given to current SCCA sponsoring Companies new vehicles. Maybe S5 should be called FS for "family sedan". Must have 4 doors, pure stock, internal combustion engine and stock size wheels w/factory size and minimum of stock TW tires of any brand? Could be fun on the cheap for people who don't want to buy a "race car" yet? Or ever.

Loren wrote:The bigger problem (for S5) is that people who truly appreciate "driving a slow car fast" are rare. Most folks who are into autocross rarely want to drive anything slower than a 1.8 Miata.

Could be. Of course, slow cars aren't as slow as they used to be...or if they are, it's because they're not very fun to drive.

In the Millennial spirit. Anyone who wants a "participant t shirt" can buy one for $20. Actually winners are "free" assuming they sign up for one?
S1 will only have one person sign up for a 3rd place t shirt and ACTUALLY show up at the picnic this year?

A T shirt isn't worth a set of adjustable shocks, $40k car and a set of decent tires + $2400. I spent $450 for a set of new tires on my S1 stock C5 and got 1 point in my 5th event. It never rained ONCE to run my rain tires on RX8 in same class. Damn. Maybe I can buy a T shirt that says: "Participant S1 FAST"? Pointless year for me. I scored higher with a 93 Crown Vic in S3 on used RX8 wheels and tires than a Vette in S1. Had more fun in the Ford shit box. If the T shirt has Larry, Moe and Curly on it I'm in for $20 XL. DECEASED PARTICIPANT 2018-19.

Being the guy who came up with the drop 3 rule so we could meet family/work obligations. Drop 3 would make 9 OPEN events the new trophy result. Right?

Jamie wrote:

Loren wrote:Now, to be fair, I specifically bought the Mirage to compete in S5. Leaving it unmodified just proved to not be an option.

Sure it was...it just wouldn't have been competitive. Try a '90s or '00s Honda, Mazda, or Toyota. Or if you really want to stray off the beaten path (and can find one), a Pinto.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/it ... 238060018/

Pinto to race?