Next Season - Mod Street Tire Classes

[Loren]

The poll above has been added to help us see if there is a concensus on how to handle Modified Street Tire classes for the coming season.

Please read this prior thread:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=481

... and all of the current thread to gain some insight about the different options and the pros and cons of each.

[Jamie]

I didn't see a decision anywhere. Of course, I didn't see a logical reason to mess with the classing, either....

[Loren]

Two reasons. One is that the two mod classes are often very large. As we discussed when reworking the "production" classes last year, the ideal target size for a class is around 6. The other reason is simply that we don't have a class that a car with modified suspension, but without 200 hp, can compete.

Read the other thread if you want to know more. I just did.

It seems that we did come to a reasonable agreement among those who were involved in the discussion.

Classing based on SCCA Street Prepared classes, grouped as stated.
Bump one class for adding forced induction.
Bump to donor class OR up one class (whichever is higher) for a significant (+25% HP) engine swap.

The three classes would be:
1 - ASP, BSP, CSP
2 - DSP, ESP
3 - FSP

Steve, we can do a poll on this if you feel it is necessary. But it was the best solution that was proposed, and enough people seemed to be in agreement with it. It also bears great similarity to how we handled our "production" classes, which has worked very well for us.

As far as I can tell, our biggest issue is what to call the classes. We're putting 3 classes in where there were two, and I don't think we want to re-letter all of the other classes. Anybody got any ideas?

[Native]

One is that the two mod classes are often very large. As we discussed when reworking the "production" classes last year, the ideal target size for a class is around 6.

09/08 - 70 - A=7, D=7, E=17, F=8, G=7, H=12, J=8
10/08 - 72 - A=8, D=7, E=15, F=10, G=10, H=9, J=9
12/08 - 48 - A=6, D=6, E=7, F=4, G=8, H=7, J=4
01/09 - 60 - ......D=7, E=17, F=4, G=11, H=7, J=7
02/09 - 49 - ......D=4, E=10, F=6, G=7, H=7, J=8
03/09 - 42 - A=5, D=1, E=9, F=5, G=9, H=3, J=4
04/09 - 38 - A=5, D=4, E=7, F=6, G=5, H=2, J=5
05/09 - 47 - A=5, D=8, E=8, F=7, G=5, H=5, J=5

At least lately, E isn't that out of line. D is not an issue at all.

I'm not in favor of this change, but I know others are. That said, I do not think a poll is necessary. It's been discussed and those who discussed were in favor. No one argued against it, and as was pointed out, the stock class changes have gone ok. But just to be sure we all get it - to use this modified classing - look at FAST mod rules and see if your car counts as modded. If so, look at the SCCA list for the Street Prepared classes and find out where your car is classed, then translate that back to the FAST street tire mod class, right? Where does the FI/swap class bump occur - in the SP classes, or in the FAST classes you translate back to?

As for class letters, you've already got it. E1, E2, and E3 replace D and E. So we're A, B, C, E1, E2, E3, F, G, H, J, R
If that's not ok, fine. But please max out at 2-character labels - none of this "STS2" stuff, please.

One last thought before we commit - can someone go back for a few events and populate E1, E2, and E3 and make sure we're not just re-organizing and still gonna come up with 1 large class and 2 small, unnecessary ones? (or has that been done and I missed it somewhere?)

[Loren]

I expected someone to bring that up, Steve. Overall attendance has been down lately, as you know. When we checked class E back in January, we were regularly getting 10 cars in class.

Jeremy analyzed a couple of events worth of data back in January, of course that would have been date from late 2008. The split was very good, but we can look at recent events. I don't have time to do it right now. If nobody beats me to it, I'll do it tomorrow.

[Loren]

Eh, okay, I guess I do have time. Here's January, April and May. The E3 class was just ME in May, but I think that's a fluke. There are an awful lot of very common cars that fit into that class, like the Focus and Corolla, Hyundai's, VW's, non-S MINI Coopers, etc. We're seeing plenty of those cars in Class G, I think if they become regulars and have a reasonable place to compete with suspension mods, they will do so. But, if they have any thoughts of competition at all, they won't want to do suspension mods just to get put in a class with a bunch of really fast cars.

If it WAS just me, I wouldn't care if we combined that class with the one above it. The PAX difference on a 40-second course between DSP/ESP and FSP is only about .6 seconds. But, I might not even be running in the class next season, and I still think the little non-turbo econoboxes need a place to play.

I know the PAX doesn't support this, but I'd like to see CSP in the 2nd class so that a turbo Miata has a place to bump up to. Maybe bump DSP down to the third class to help fill it out? Jeremy will say that the ESP PAX is slower (by .001) than DSP, but remember that ESP doesn't allow a lot of the cheap and easy aftermarket mods that we DO allow... that can make ESP faster.

So, as an alternate proposal:
E1 = ASP/BSP (and bumps from below)
E2 = CSP/ESP (and bumps from below)
E3 = DSP/FSP

Discuss. I'm going to bed.

January 2009 (compiled by Jeremy previously)

Class E1 (ASP/BSP/CSP)
1) Ronald Croft 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 60.591 BSP
2) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX 61.353 ESP, with BSP swap, bumps to class 1
3) Mark Jones 96 Mazda Miata 64.635 CSP
4) Carl McKim 96 Mazda Miata 65.620 CSP
5) Ron Marchini 04 Honda S2000 63.717+1 BSP
6) Brian Bode 01 Honda S2000 64.746+1 BSP
7) Juan Rodriguez 04 Mazda RX8 64.797+1 BSP
8 ) Tim Allen 93 Mazda Miata 66.859 CSP
9) William Ensminge96 Nissan 240sx 68.803+1 DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1
10) Doug Anderson Nissan 240sx 75.375 DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1

Class E2 (DSP/ESP)
1) Rydell Huff 1 Impreza 2.5RS 62.723 DSP
2) Robert Vincent 05 Legacy GT 63.503 ESP
3) Andrew Scoda 87 Ford Mustang 63.994 ESP
4) John Kucek 00 Honda Civic Si 63.831+1 DSP
5) Jeff Greenhaus Acura Integra 64.013+2 DSP
6) Chris Wells 00 Honda Civic 68.034+1 FSP, turbo add bumps to class 2
7) Keith Pecha Pontiac Firebird 72.297 ESP
8 ) John Dellacosta Ford Mustang 71.327+2 ESP
9) Lisa Vlaming 91 Honda Prelude 91.758+5 DSP

Class E3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams 07 Sloyota Yaris 61.633 FSP
2) Evan Warner 04 Ford Focus 67.458 FSP
3) Michael Houtz 99 Toyota Corolla 68.996 FSP
4) Mark Warner Ford Focus 65.455+2 FSP
5) Jeff Klein Toyota Carolla GTS 80.461+1 FSP


April 2009

Class E1 (ASP/BSP/CSP)
1) Charles Stowe 240SX 67.811 DSP, bump up for engine swap
2) Phillip Hart Miata 73.682 CSP w/ SC
3) Rosario Gualtieri WRX STI 73.959 BSP

Class E2 (DSP/ESP)
1) Andrew Scoda Mustang GT 68.742 ESP
2) Rydell Huff Impreza 2.5RS 71.663 DSP
3) Nils Winberg BMW 325i 72.179 DSP
4) Jeff Blaine WRX 72.350 ESP
5) Randolph Barrera Prelude SH 74.183 DSP

Class E3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams Yaris 67.024 FSP
2) Elliott Harvey Nissan NX2000 68.167 FSP
3) Evan Warner Focus 72.895 FSP

May 2009

Class E1 (ASP/BSP/CSP)
1) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX 44.733 ESP, bump for engine swap
2) Phillip Hart Miata 47.288 CSP w/ SC
3) Dan Rasp Miata 47.764 CSP
4) Steven Sheehy 240SX 49.673 DSP, bump for turbo
5) Sean Forrester 240SX 50.466 DSP, bump for turbo
6) Keith Pecha Pontiac Firehawk 52.114 BSP

Class E2 (DSP/ESP)
1) Andrew Scoda Mustang GT 45.020 ESP
2) Rydell Huff Impreza 2.5RS 45.796 DSP
3) Robert Vincent Legacy GT 46.446 ESP
4) Chris Wells 2000 Civic 47.653 FSP, bump for turbo
5) Nate Howells WRX 48.498 ESP
6) Joel Harshbarger Del Sol 48.609 DSP
7) Chris Barnes 240SX 49.848 DSP
8 ) Jonathan Dunham BMW 323 51.827 DSP
9) Douglas Anderson WRX 52.503 ESP

Class E3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams Yaris 45.082 FSP

[Agent]

So you are getting rid of D all together? I ask that because you have Kenny in E1. Not only does Kenny have an engine swap, but the engine is also turboed.

[Loren]

So you are getting rid of D all together? I ask that because you have Kenny in E1. Not only does Kenny have an engine swap, but the engine is also turboed.

If we replace D/E with three classes, the three classes will be E1/E2/E3. That was Steve's idea above. It works.

The class NAME of D goes away. It will essentially be replaced by E1, though some of the D cars will also end up in E2.

What's in a name?

[Agent]

Oh, well that makes more sense. Basically D and E are staying, and we are doing away with the 1.5x multiplyer, while adding a class for modded cars on street tires without FI like a certain Yaris.

[Loren]

Oh, well that makes more sense. Basically D and E are staying, and we are doing away with the 1.5x multiplyer, while adding a class for modded cars on street tires without FI like a certain Yaris.

Sort of, but the new "middle" class will also be more equitable for other cars.

[Jeremy]

I love symmetry. I wish we could get rid of over/under 3L all together, even though it doesn't really make sense, because we have hardly any race tire participants.

**OLD**

10 classes

* R - Open or closed wheel race cars (all)
* A - Modified race tire (all)
* B - Production race tire 3 liters and greater
* C - Production race tire less than 3 liters
* D - Modified street tire 3 liters and greater
* E - Modified street tire less than 3 liters
* F, G, H & J - Production street tire classes
* Production Class car list by class
* Production Class car list by make


**NEW**

15 classes (or 13 if you want to combine some Production race tire classes)

* R - Open or closed wheel race cars (all)
* CR, DR, ER - Modified race tire classes
* C, D, E - Modified street tire classes
* FR, GR, HR, JR - Production race tire classes
* F, G, H & J - Production street tire classes
* Production Class car list by class
* Production Class car list by make
* Modified Class car list by class
* Modified Class car list by make


OR, this could get messy...

11 classes

* R - Open or closed wheel race cars (all)
* CR, DR- Modified race tire classes
* C, D - Modified street tire classes
* FR, HR - Production race tire classes
* F, G, H & J - Production street tire classes
* Production Class car list by class (link)
* Production Class car list by make (link)
* Modified Class car list by class (link)
* Modified Class car list by make (link)

Where C and D are split (ASP/BSP/CSP) (DSP/ESP/FSP)
FR is the cars of F and G combined.
HR is the cars of H and J combined.

or any combination like that...

[Loren]

Jeremy, you're making my head spin.

I don't think we want to re-engineer our entire class structure. Let's just stick to "Modified Street Tire". (I now realize that my subject line on this thread is a little off -- edit: fixed)

[WAFlowers]

I love symmetry. I wish we could get rid of over/under 3L all together, even though it doesn't really make sense, because we have hardly any race tire participants.

Maybe, eventually, I can see us revising the class B/C split based on SCCA PAX scores instead of displacement. But not today. No one had been compaining it was broken so let's not fix it.

Instead let's keep the discussion focussed on the issue at hand.

(If I was "smart" I'd run in Class B even though I have less than 3L and street tires. I'd stand a good chance of getting 1st place because I'd be alone in the class! )

[Jeremy]

What if this guy decides to replace his factory turbo with something bigger? No penalty?

E2
2) Robert Vincent 05 Legacy GT 63.503 ESP

[Loren]

What if this guy decides to replace his factory turbo with something bigger? No penalty?

E2
2) Robert Vincent 05 Legacy GT 63.503 ESP

For our purposes, I'd say no penalty. Do we want to be in the business of inspecting every turbo car to see that they have a stock turbo under the hood? Nah, that's not how we roll.

"Is there a turbo under the hood?"
"Did the car come with a turbo?"

Easily answered questions, easily verifiable.

[Jeremy]

Why not just split them in half?

asp/bsp/csp
dsp/esp/fsp

Sure FSP is going to be out gunned, but we did the same thing with HS last year by throwing them in with GS, and no one has complained.

[Loren]

Why not just split them in half?

asp/bsp/csp
dsp/esp/fsp

Sure FSP is going to be out gunned, but we did the same thing with HS last year by throwing them in with GS, and no one has complained.

That's certainly an option, but it's not much better than what we have now. When I saw myself as the ONLY FSP car in the May results, this thought did occur to me.

My preference would still be the revised 3-class split:
1 - asp/bsp
2 - csp/esp
3 - dsp/fsp

Essentially, that equates to:
1 - High-powered cars with good handling
2 - Medium-powered cars with good handling and more powerful cars with poor handling
3 - Medium-powered cars with mediocre handling and low-powered cars with good handling

For those following along who aren't familiar with the SCCA SP classes:
ASP - primarily lightweight fast sports cars (think Lotus)
BSP - somewhat heavier, but high-powered fast sports cars (C4/5 Corvette)
CSP - lightweight, low-power sports cars and sporty cars (Miata/Civic)
DSP - mid-weight, mid-power sports cars and sporty cars (BMW)
ESP - mid-weight, high-power muscle cars and similar (Mustang/Camaro/WRX/DSM)
FSP - low-power, low-mid-weight econoboxes and old sports cars (newer Civic/Focus/Yaris, old British cars, etc)

[Jeremy]

My preference would still be the revised 3-class split:
1 - asp/bsp
2 - csp/esp
3 - dsp/fsp

Eh. I don't like that. I guess you are trying to make a non-bumped Miata more competitive. I guess this is sort of like what the SCCA is going through right now trying to build the new STR class. They are restricting tire and wheel sizes to try and make the miata more competitive with the boxster and s2000.

I don't like DSP/FSP together at all. Last week, the Merideth's BMW was going .6 faster than me. And you want to put that car in the slowest class?

I think
A/B/C
D/E
F
is the most fair split. Stock powered Miata's are going to have a little bit of trouble running with an s2000 on unlimited tire widths. I don't think it will be that bad though. s2000 is pretty much limited to 245 or 255 in front. If you can get 255's on a miata, the miata should be faster considering it is way lighter.

*edit: And I seriously doubt you are going to see an s2000 in this class with anything bigger than 225 front 255 rear (except me, ). So find a way to get 245's all around on a miata, and you should be really fast.

[Loren]

With regard to Miatas, I'm not so concerned about them competing with other cars as I am with them competing with themselves. We get a LOT of Miatas at our events (go figure), and there's just no way that a NA Miata can keep up with an FI Miata... thus they shouldn't be in the same class.

Likewise, for the CSP class, the Miata (NA) is about on par with the CRX, right at the top of the class. That's why I don't think CSP belongs in our top class.

For fairness, if we're doing two classes, ASP/BSP should be the top class, and all others in the lower class.

[Jeremy]

Maybe...
ASP/BSP
CSP/DSP/ESP
FSP
would be fair, but I have a feeling class 2 will be too large.

I still say A/B/C should run together, make the Miata's work for the win.