Class A Rules Proposal

[muddy]

The typical car that competes in Class A has a full interior, is street legal, and runs on DOT-R compound tires. Therefore, I believe Class A competitors would be better served by following the SCCA SM/SM2 rules. These rules are very similar to SP, but allow power adders, such as a supercharger or turbo.

Let's not kid anyone here. I am, of course, trying to get Howard's car bumped to another class. I don't think it makes sense to have a national championship-winning, SCCA-Prepared class car in the same class with every other car that has ever competed in class A. All other competitor's cars would fall into SM, SM2, or SP classes in the SCCA. I believe all SCCA Prepared class cars are better suited for Class R, considering their light weight and racing slicks.

[Agent]

Well, I'm pretty sure Howard got a 41 second run at the last event, what time did Scott end up getting in the Vee? That might be something to look into as well. If they are both really close as far as times, it may make sense, but if they are a few seconds apart still...

[Charles]

Makes sense to me, just not sure how you would make the break off point between A and R clear.

DOT-R tires = A
Full slicks = R

Or just follow the SCCA classing as you suggested..... it's the same route we are going with the rest of our classing structure so..........

[Loren]

Need more input.

If you want to limit Class A to a particular set of modifications and bump anyone who's gone beyond that to Class R... what are the limitations?

Obviously, stripped interior and non-DOT tires are two that concern you.

I'm just not sure I can get behind this, though. You're trying to say that your Miata should be competitive in Class A, and Howard shouldn't be in the same class. Let's try a thought experiment... we know Miatas...

What if you started with a 1990 Miata? Every part of the drivetrain and suspension of your Mazdaspeed Miata could be bolted onto that 1990 Miata and the car would be at least 400 pounds lighter. You could then flare the fenders and run 245 Hoosier autocross tires on all four corners. Now, try to tell me that car wouldn't be capable of running circles around Howard's CRX. But, you're saying Howard's car is over-prepared? The potential for the lightweight, high-powered, FULL-INTERIORED class killer still exists in your SM/SM2 world. And, until Howard adds forced induction, he's not even in the same league.

You could do a non-DOT tire rule for Class A, but is the difference between slicks and DOT tires really that much? In a class that allows fender flares and wider tires? If there's a difference between the tires (there is), it can easily be compensated for by running a wider tire. So, you wouldn't really be solving a problem with that rule.

R class was never intended to be a class for production cars. Maybe if Howard went as far as to tube-frame his car it might come close to the R class model. Otherwise, it's still a "modified production car".

[Loren]

Or just follow the SCCA classing as you suggested..... it's the same route we are going with the rest of our classing structure so..........

That is absolutely NOT what we're doing. We are not following SCCA's PREPARATION rules at all. We're merely using their lists of cars to group cars for us. There's a big difference, and I don't think we want to start following SCCA's prep rules.

[muddy]

The R class is the best class we have now for a SCCA Prepared class car. At this time, it doesn't make sense to have a separate class for them, since we have just one regular competitor.

Carl - At this level, comparing just two drivers in two different cars is not statistically significant. My point is that the level of prepartion of Howard's car, compared to that of his competitors, is significant enough to exclude it from Class A.

Loren - I am not saying that my miata should be competitive in the class, rather a car such as Howard's hurts everyone's chances of being competitive in the class. Just the same as breaking up some of the other classes, I think we should break up this class to conform with the cars that participate in our events.

I also disagree with your horsepower argument. Adding horsepower won't make up for the 500 lbs+ weight difference in our cars. The weight difference is even more for other previous competitors, such as Tim (corvette) and Drew (mustang). Wider tires and flares will make our cars wider and heavier, not really much advantage at an autox.

In the interest of full disclosure, I don't expect to be competitive in class A next season. I will be running a harder compound tire and don't expect to attend all events.

[Loren]

I fear I didn't sufficiently make my point, or that you're just not open to hearing it.

With no limits on modification, a Miata (or one of many other cars) can be made to be much faster than Howard's CRX. Moving Howard (or anyone else who has stripped interior and is running non-DOT tires) is not going to affect the potential of our A class.

How many times has Ron taken FTD... sometimes over Howard? Even Ron's car is still a heavy Mazdaspeed Miata and never wore tires that were wider than 225.

[muddy]

I fear I didn't sufficiently make my point, or that you're just not open to hearing it.

With no limits on modification, a Miata (or one of many other cars) can be made to be much faster than Howard's CRX. Moving Howard (or anyone else who has stripped interior and is running non-DOT tires) is not going to affect the potential of our A class.

How many times has Ron taken FTD... sometimes over Howard? Even Ron's car is still a heavy Mazdaspeed Miata and never wore tires that were wider than 225.

Now you are comparing drivers.

My point is that Howard's car does not represent the amount of preparation that ALL other cars that have EVER participated in the class have. All it takes in this club is some race tires and springs to be pitted against a National Championship winning, Prepared-Class car. Considering that most participants in our events are casual autocrossers, I believe a prepared car is out of place in class A.

[Loren]

And then when a good driver shows up in a decently prepared lightweight Miata... are we going to come up with a rule to exclude them, too?

Look at it from Howard's perspective. He's already in a class that he should NOT be competitive in. Someone could show up tomorrow with a car just like his with a supercharger and enough tire to make it work and be significantly faster than he is on ANY course. You're putting him in a class where he has to compete with purpose-built race cars.

But, what I like least about this idea is (much like the SCCA has done time and time again), it "breaks" the progression of classes. If a driver starts autocrossing in a stock car on street tires, we have a class for them. When they start modifying the car, we have a class for them... and that class has NO limitations on modifications. Now, if they decide to go to race tires, you want to put limitations on them?

My car is a good example. If I wanted to run race tires right now, you're saying that I shouldn't be eligible to run in Class A because I've removed my back seat.

Every rule you can dream up will have unintended side effects. That's why we chose to Keep It Simple from the start. Remember, we're all about fun, not all about competition.

[WAFlowers]

What if you started with a 1990 Miata? Every part of the drivetrain and suspension of your Mazdaspeed Miata could be bolted onto that 1990 Miata and the car would be at least 400 pounds lighter. You could then flare the fenders and run 245 Hoosier autocross tires on all four corners.

That sounds like a fun project! Now, if I could only find the time, space and donor vehicles.

[Charles]

I forgot to mention, race tires are for punks anyway!

P.S. - If I go to race tires some time next year I don't care who I have to run against........

[Agent]

You could then flare the fenders and run 245 Hoosier autocross tires on all four corners. Now, try to tell me that car wouldn't be capable of running circles around Howard's CRX.

Just out of curiosity, if this is the truth, why did you tell me on Sunday that a 225 tire is too big for a Miata in your opinion?

[impalanut]

Personally, I don't care how we do the classes, I have enough stickers and tee shirts, I just like the people in the club and all the seat time I can get so I don't end up dead last at nationals. If you want to make a natural progression, I think it is reasonable to make another class (lets call it X) above our A class. Things that would move you up could include removing the interior (probably more than just the back seat and trunk liner but we would have to figure out the limit), true slicks, motor swaps (there are no classes in SCCA that allow motor swaps except SM/SSM , XP, and modifieds), probably should include changes in body panels, addition of wings, etc. You can call this the supermodified cars. This would make our A class the equivalent of SCCA street prepared (our modified) and the new class the equivalent of SCCA prepared. R Class already covers the SCCA modified classes. Not that we are using SCCA rules, but there is a lot of information from the SCCA so we don't have to reinvent the wheel. Eventually, we could find a way to all have our own classes, we could increase the fee for racing to cover the cost of all the stickers and tee shirts so we can all be class winners
Historically, we have had a number of other race like cars at our events. I can think of at least two hondas that were gutted and probably club raced, a race version of a gutted Z, and a few others, although not in the last couple of years.
Also, if you look at the PAX numbers for the SCCA you will see that the pax numbers for ASP, CSP, SM, and SSM are all faster than EP. This is gleaned from a lot of races with a lot of good drivers, and cars prepared to the limits of the class for the most part. This means that moderately modded Miatas and Corvettes are generally faster than a highly modded CRX. Also, all modified and all prepared except GP are faster than EP.

[Loren]

Also, if you look at the PAX numbers for the SCCA you will see that the pax numbers for ASP, CSP, SM, and SSM are all faster than EP.

I think that says it all right there.

[Loren]

You could then flare the fenders and run 245 Hoosier autocross tires on all four corners. Now, try to tell me that car wouldn't be capable of running circles around Howard's CRX.

Just out of curiosity, if this is the truth, why did you tell me on Sunday that a 225 tire is too big for a Miata in your opinion?

It's too big for a Miata without fender flares, and it's not necessary for a Miata that isn't making something like 250+ hp.

[Agent]

I must be the worst driver in the world dude. I mean, I'm supposed to be able to have a faster car than Howard and he beats me by something like 4 seconds! :shock: I mean, I know I'm shitty, but I didn't think I was that bad.

But I'm still confused, you said take an early NA, throw the mazdaspeed motor in it, put 245 tires on it and beat Howard. Since my motor is more powerful than that is, does that mean I need more than a 245 tire? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be offensive, but you are basically saying that my car should beat able to beat Howard. That's all well and good, and I simply want to know how I'm supposed to do that so I can do it. I know it's not JUST driver skill, as Brian didn't have any better luck in my car than I did.

[snookwheel]

Have you ever seen Howard and the Stig in the same room at the same time? I thought not...... coincidence??? Just a theory.

[Loren]

I must be the worst driver in the world dude. I mean, I'm supposed to be able to have a faster car than Howard and he beats me by something like 4 seconds! :shock: I mean, I know I'm shitty, but I didn't think I was that bad.

You're definitely not at the level Howard is at, nor should you expect to be. But, your major problem right now is tires.

But I'm still confused, you said take an early NA, throw the mazdaspeed motor in it, put 245 tires on it and beat Howard. Since my motor is more powerful than that is, does that mean I need more than a 245 tire? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be offensive, but you are basically saying that my car should beat able to beat Howard. That's all well and good, and I simply want to know how I'm supposed to do that so I can do it. I know it's not JUST driver skill, as Brian didn't have any better luck in my car than I did.

Driver skill is a HUGE part of it, my friend. My theoretical Miata would need to be a trailer queen, like Howard's car... or at least, *I* wouldn't want to drive it on the street regularly. The car would tip the scales at no more than 2000 pounds. The Mazdaspeed turbo would be tweaked for more power and throttle response, of course. And the tires (whether they be 225 or 245) would be NEW, top-of-the-line R-compound tires, not something you picked up used that's as hard as an all-season street tire. (duh!)

But, one of the biggest things you're overlooking here is how much TIME and expertise (both his and that of experienced national-level competitors) Howard has in the development of his car. He's spent YEARS learning the intricacies of the CRX chassis, how it responds to suspension changes, and how to drive it. Earlier this year, he was out testing three different NEW brands of tires on the same day on the same course to learn which ones worked better... not based on what other people said, but what worked best on HIS car. That's the level of preparation that has gone into Howard's car. Put the interior back in the car, switch him to DOT tires, give him 6 months and the car will be JUST as fast as it is today!

What have you done? Slapped on a coilover kit, set it to ONE position, messed with the shock adjustments for 2-3 events... and have you even done an alignment? You've been like this since you started autocrossing, Carl... you expect it to be EASY, and it's not. You can't just throw parts at a car and win.

When did you start listening to me, anyway?

[Agent]

Well in case you haven't noticed or haven't paid attention, I've based about everything that has been done to the car on your inputs.

[muddy]

I must confess, I haven't paid any attention to SCCA PAX numbers for many years.

However, I don't think my argument is much different than this:

The other reason is simply that we don't have a class that a car with modified suspension, but without 200 hp, can compete.

Regardless of t-shirts and trophies, people want to be competitive in the car they bring, be that a stipped honda on slicks, a turbo miata on DOT-Rs, or a 3500 lbs Mustang on road race tires. Most of the cars that run in the class are woefully under-prepared and I think the rules should be changed to reflect that. Yellow_Colorz_PDT_06