New PRO class?

[impalanut]

Like I said, I don't care what class I am in. We could run a PRO class like they do at other groups. This would be for anyone and could be instead of or in addition to the regular classes. Pro class is run on SCCA pax. It would show relative times of cars in different groups. I know that in a lot of places the guys (or gals) who are running a lot of divisional and national events want to go to the local events but don't want to take away from the local only drivers who are not as serious from a time or money standpoint, so they run only the pro class. It also gives a little more competition. This doesn't require anything but making a list of pax times. What I would recommend is posting everyones pax times but only putting the people who opt out of their classes in the Pro class itself. I would opt out of A and run the pro index. Scott has no competition so he could run in Pro or R depending on what he wants to do. Also, the guys who have dominated the other classes like Jeremy, Jack Neely, Bob Tamandli, and others who have won multiple years in a row should consider this also. Looking at the last competition the PRO class would have Jeremy in first, then me, then Jamie,Loren, and Scott. I guestimated the SCCA classes so it might be a little different. Actually, looking at the past year standings, I have not won the most events or year end points, and my margins were not the biggest. Also, since we expanded the classes we have more winners due to more classes, but the scores are more lopsided, there have been fewer close competitions for year end points.

[Jack]

sounds interesting.

[Jack]

i like the idea.

[WAFlowers]

Pro class? I like the idea of moving those people out of the class I run in. Get rid of them and then I might COMPETE in the class, instead of just RUN in the class!

[Alizarin]

As the guy who has to generate the results most of the time, I do not like Howard's proposal as it makes more work for me. Yellow_Colorz_PDT_08

[impalanut]

It's not more work, it's a chance to excel personally and to improve the club. I am sure you realize you just put in the pax numbers like a spread sheet and the magical electronic box does all the real work Yellow_Colorz_PDT_06

[Loren]

I'm all for a "pro class", but I don't buy into the PAX index at our level.

[impalanut]

We have already agreed that the SCCA pax info is the best info we have available, just look back into this thread and a number of people have agreed that based on the pax info the discussion about what type of cars should be faster was not a valid opinion. (ie, EP CRX should not be faster than SM, CP, etc) We need something to level the playing field or else no one with stock type cars would want to move up to Pro class. We would have the same arrangement we have now but I would move up to R class and all the others would be the same. The purpose of PRO class IMHO is to allow competition between dissimilar cars and to get the people who have won multiple years in a row (not me by the way) to move up and allow others to compete for the class titles and still have some competition for themselves. If you have an idea about how to do that without a pax or similar arrangement I would like to see it.

[Loren]

I like the idea, I just don't like the index. It's "reasonably okay" the way we're using it... essentially to group similar cars with similar limitations.

But, how could we possibly use it to, for instance, allow you and I to compete fairly? Your car is easy, it's pretty well prepped for EP. How do you accurately PAX my car? FSP? (it's not even legal for FSP... but I'm on street tires) ST? (probably not legal for ST, either... and dog slow for an ST car) All of the stock class indexes are useless, too... they're all based on race tires.

I did devise an index once that worked okay for a couple years. We called it the Driver Indexed Class. Biggest problem with it was that it couldn't be figured "on the fly", nobody really understood it, and nobody really knew who "won" the class on any given day until after the event! It was an index based on how each driver did over the last 3 events compared to FTD at each event. Didn't matter what they drove, as long as they stayed in the same car without making significant modifications. (as it worked out, the index rewarded consistency, and even more rewarded consistent improvement, which is why we had to limit it to "veteran" autocrossers) You were essentially competing against your own potential based on recent events. Fun, but I don't have the motivation to take that one one again.

Well... maybe. If there was enough interest.

[impalanut]

I don't disagree, the pax numbers are based on cars prepped to the max allowed in each class. That brings us back to the original discussion. How to make it fair for those casual drivers and not penalize someone willing to go to the max. Why not just use the street tire pax numbers for the cars on street tires and get close to the mods. Give them the choice between the street tire or stock class pax, whichever is less as long as the car is stock. ST, STS, STU , and STX would cover most of the cars that race on street tires with just a little leeway. For those on race tires, we would probably be able to find the right class.

[Loren]

We've strayed from the original topic, if a Mod is motivated enough to split it.

Do we have enough players for a "pro" class? That's probably the best first question to ask. If we don't have at least 4 solid players, it's probably not worth worrying about.

[Jamie]

We've strayed from the original topic, if a Mod is motivated enough to split it.

Do we have enough players for a "pro" class? That's probably the best first question to ask. If we don't have at least 4 solid players, it's probably not worth worrying about.

If this alternative plays out, splitting class A may be moot. If we want to set up a pro class, I'm in.

[Loren]

Had a little time this evening, so did some analysis. I looked at a very limited number of drivers over the last 4 events. Generally, our most consistent drivers, and drivers that would be good candidates for our Pro class (in my eyes).

I played with reverse-calculating indexes for each driver by using one consistent driver as a reference, I did this with three different reference drivers. This demonstrated to me that among our driver base, several drivers are VERY close to their "correct" PAX index. The index works as it should... the really good drivers in (nominally) stock cars on race tires are right on their indexes. Howard is also very close to his PAX due to his car being prepped to the limit of the rules for his class. What about the other folks?

Well, amazingly, for me... I came out almost right on the H-Stock PAX! The very few other driver's I looked at were a bit below their PAX and/or incosistent. (which also jives with the actual results... sorry guys)

I did some quick math, and assuming that the difference between race tires and street tires is about 2.5 seconds, a PAX adjustment of .03 (lower) would be appropriate.

I think we could get away with using PAX for our pro class with that one simple adjustment. All the stock class cars competing on street tires... subtract .03 from their PAX. For me, class me in FSP (which is appropriate), and subtract .03... that puts me right where I should be (according to my analysis), which is also .001 off of the HS PAX.

So... yeah, I'd compete in a "pro" class that either classed me in HS, or FSP with a .03 modifier. I think the .03 modifier would be more fair for all, though.

[impalanut]

Either way works for me. The adjustment for street tires on the stock cars seems reasonable.

[Native]

We've strayed from the original topic, if a Mod is motivated enough to split it.

Still a discussion about modified race tire cars...tell me where to split it, or just start a new thread about a pro class?

[Loren]

A little clarification, for the difference between street tires and race tires, that's 2.5 seconds on a 60-second course. A correction of .03 makes up for that. It's about as close as we're going to get because there are so many different "race tires" that can vary by a second or more between them, and even the current crop of "good" street tires have more variance than that.

[Loren]

We've strayed from the original topic, if a Mod is motivated enough to split it.

Still a discussion about modified race tire cars...tell me where to split it, or just start a new thread about a pro class?

I think the discussion of what to do with Class A died a long time ago with the general idea being to just bump any car on non-DOT tires to the Race class.

We've been talking about a pro class lately, which is a completely unrelated issue.

[Jamie]

I think the discussion of what to do with Class A died a long time ago with the general idea being to just bump any car on non-DOT tires to the Race class.

So is that an agreed-upon rule change, or just Howard being voted off the Class A island? "General ideas" make poor rules -- I need to revise next season's classing chart to accomodate class I...er, E 1 through 10...need to also know how to define A (and R).

[Dave-ROR]

I also don't care what class I'm in. I won G two years in a row so I guess I'd move up? Doesn't matter either way, not sure anyone else cares either considering I actually make 3-4 autocrosses a year now...

[snookwheel]

If PAX is based upon a car being prepared to the max allowed for the class, then that just might be the reason I was looking for to go to a 1915 engine and disc brakes! Or, upgrade to an F440 or 500! Forgive my ignorance, but is a PAX number a constant for a given class, or does it differ between different cars in the same class?

ie FM has Solo Vee, F440 and F500. The same PAX for all or different for each type of vehicle in FM.

EDIT: Never mind, I just googled up my own answer. PAX is the same for all cars in a given class.