New PRO class?

[Native]

I did better than I expected. Especially once I got rid of the old Azenis.

Actually, a long time ago, Jeremy offered to class anyone's car for SCCA - I'm gonna be checking with him to find out if he's still offering - could be handy for this ProClass thingy, and I'm actually going to enter an SCCA event and will need to know.

Jeremy?

[Jeremy]

I did better than I expected. Especially once I got rid of the old Azenis.

Actually, a long time ago, Jeremy offered to class anyone's car for SCCA - I'm gonna be checking with him to find out if he's still offering - could be handy for this ProClass thingy, and I'm actually going to enter an SCCA event and will need to know.

Jeremy?

Sure, I don't know it all off the top of my head now though. I'd have to look at the rule book for most things.

[Native]

aw, heck, I can look at the rulebook. I'll bug you if I need help figuring anything out.

[miazda man]

Anything to get Steve out of H

[Native]

Oh, Bob, I'll never leave class H.

[Jack]

i am considering this new class, all though i do only belive this will work if the pro class only uses true scca rules. pax was set by these standards, so letting any mods just go by would not have true pax results,
in scca adding a cold air intake move you from stock to prepared. or removing interior seats pannels moves you into a higher class, rim and tire sizes are also a factor. i will keep watching to see what happens. looks interesing though!

[impalanut]

I agree. We make allowances in the regular classes to allow for novices and those who don't want to spend too much on their car. The PRO class should be straight SCCA pax. If you don't want to run the PRO class you can remain in your regular class. I would like to encourage people to run the PRO class, especially if they have won their class more than once, but we need to use the best data available and that's the pax from SCCA.

[Loren]

Count me out. If y'all want to take it that seriously, that's fine.

I have no intention of reinstalling my back seat. (mainly just because I'm lazy)
And there's no way I can compete with the same PAX index as Howard.

[Jack]

scca allows dot r comps in all classes except street tire classes.
so to be competitive u need to use r comps or stay in street tire, if you dont have slicks.
loran i would guess you would be in a street tire class not run in howards class?
as for you seat i really dont care, but where do we draw the line and how?

[Loren]

Jack, we already addressed the difference between street tires and race
tires in a race tire class with a .03 index adjustment. If you're going to
join this discussion, please read what's already been said, don't just jump
in at the end.

Where do we draw the line on what mods to allow? I say we take each
car on a case-by-case basis and as a class agree on what a fair index
is for that car.

In my case, my car is closest to being prepped for FSP. It's well
beyond stock, but nowhere near P, M or SM. I have a few minor mods
(or maybe just the one) that might not be legal for FSP, but even with
them, my car is heavier and less powerful than the top level FSP cars.

In Steve's case, he may be over-prepared for STS, but that class is
also the best fit for his car.

Even looking at Jeremy's car... he's nowhere near a full BSP spec, and I
would have no problem at all overlooking some minor rules infractions
on his car as long as that's the case.

But, if enough people want this to be a "by the book" class, so be it.
I'll go play in our new "E3" class. I think a PAX class with a fair index
would be more challenging, but it's all good.

I think limiting this class to only those drivers who have a car that is
prepared to SCCA specs will likely render it too small to bother with.
Our pool of "pro" drivers is small enough already.

[Dave-ROR]

If I wanted to deal with exact SCCA classing, I'd go run SCCA events more often.

I'd stay in the regular classes too, I don't care enough about autocross to build my car for a class, that's one of the things I like about FAST.

[Charles]

I think limiting this class to only those drivers who have a car that is
prepared to SCCA specs will likely render it too small to bother with.
Our pool of "pro" drivers is small enough already.

Bingo! Even if you looked at our entire club we have maybe 5 cars or so prepped to even 75% of the class guidelines. My car is no exception, hardcore SM competitors would laugh at my 9" wide wheels and wimpy ~ 275hp.

Technically under "to the letter of the law" SCCA classing, I don't think the Silvia front end conversion on my car is legal even in SM so I guess I'd bump to XP ?

[Jack]

loran, i dont have the time to read every post.

i thought this was a club were everyone can give some ideas?

[Loren]

Ideas are welcome, but I think it's a little rude to dive into the middle or end of a discussion like this without taking the time to at least skim the high points of what's been said already.

[impalanut]

Even if we have 5-6 drivers that is as big as A and bigger then B or R. We have all the other classes for the people who are more casual. This would be the only class for those who are more serious about working on their cars and no one has to participate, they can stay in their regular class. But if you already have won your class multiple times I would think you would want a higher level of competition. People who have street tires can always run a street tire index if that is an easier index than their r tire class. As you can see from the 2009 pax table, only a few classes would change by .03, reflecting the improvements in "street" tires over the years. I think the example you used for the sample pax tables were either older tables or maybe the pro solo tables which are different from the current solo pax tables.

[Loren]

I agree 5-6 drivers is plenty for a class. But, I doubt that you'll get more than 3 regular competitors for the class if it requires strict adherance to the SCCA rule book in order to be competitive.

For my examples, I used the 2009 PAX index:
http://scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2009.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the only index I know of.

[Jeremy]

I think he is saying that your 3% street tire modifier is too generous by stating that the current SCCA street tire classes aren't 3% slower than their stock counterparts judging by the pax index.

Why don't you try judging the street tire classes against their respective SP classes instead of stock?

ST Civic vs. CSP Civic - 4.4%
STS CRX/Miata vs. CSP CRX/Miata - 4.2%
STX WRX vs. ESP WRX - 2.4%
STU STi vs. BSP STi - 2.3%

Sure there are other variables at play here, but I think 3% is a happy medium.

3% on a 60 sec course equals 1.8 seconds. I remember reading an article in sportscar magazine that tested RE01R's against V710s and the r-comps were still 2 secs faster.

So even though street tires are improving, so are r-comps at a similar rate.

[nc4me]

I'm confused about the scca rules for my car. I know I'm in c-stock right now. I have a 08 Mazda MX-5 sport, which could not be ordered with the factory lsd(only the touring and grand touring models could). I wanted to install the factory LSD so I could be more competitive in G with FAST(since I seem to be the only one without one and our rules allow it). I have been contemplating the pro class, but would adding that factory lsd put me in csp or would I still remain in cs. The 09 SCCA rules say a standard part is one that can be ordered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered through a dealer in the US. The factory lsd can be ordered on an MX-5 just not the sport(which I have) so would adding it bump me to csp or would I remain in CS?

[Jeremy]

I'm confused about the scca rules for my car. I know I'm in c-stock right now. I have a 08 Mazda MX-5 sport, which could not be ordered with the factory lsd(only the touring and grand touring models could). I wanted to install the factory LSD so I could be more competitive in G with FAST(since I seem to be the only one without one and our rules allow it). I have been contemplating the pro class, but would adding that factory lsd put me in csp or would I still remain in cs. The 09 SCCA rules say a standard part is one that can be ordered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered through a dealer in the US. The factory lsd can be ordered on an MX-5 just not the sport(which I have) so would adding it bump me to csp or would I remain in CS?

Technically you would have to convert your car to a touring or grandtouring model. Like if they only came with leather seats, you would have to put leather seats in, etc.

However I don't think it would matter for FAST. You aren't really gaining a significant advantage over someone with a touring model? So no big deal probably.

[nc4me]

Once again this is where we need to make a decision if we will let some things slide in this pro class or not. I got the official answer on another sight. Adding the lsd would put me in CSP which means I would need to beat you and howard(which obviously isn't going to happen). If thats the case I have no business in the pro class. If you feel it isn't that big of a deal and make an exception for me, than you would need to make an exception for Loren as well and put him in FSP. You(Jeremy) seem to be fine with that, but others want to go strictly by SCCA rules for this class. Which I think is fine. However, some have already chimed in saying that if they wanted strict SCCA rules they would run a SCCA event.

So pretty much we need to vote or take a poll to see what the consensus would be. Should we go strictly by SCCA rules which would bump me and Loren out(maybe others who were thinking about it but haven't posted) or make Loren's back seat, my factory LSD addition, and maybe a few others that would be bumped for minor things slide and decide car by car. Either way we need everyone who is truly interested to voice there opinion and choose one way or the other.