2010 Class Champions

[Native]

I don't get it?????

Steven, I can't view the points table. This is the only time this has happened. I've always been able to view it in the past. It just comes up as a whole bunch of weird ? characters.

Dunno.
Didja ever get it to load right?

[yamaha731]

that's a little messed up you told me 2 weeks ago I could not get my points from 4/24 and how do's someone get 1 point and 6 points on the same day?

[Native]

Chris,
I checked my emails and pm's and can't find the discussion you mentioned from two weeks ago.

Please refresh my memory as to what the issue was?

[yamaha731]

Its on page 8 of upcoming events july/17

[Native]

Thanks, yep, same thing - your name was entered twice on the points table.

Keith only got 6 points for Apr. If he got one plus six, his total would be 23. Although while the rules say you can't win more than one Class for a season, they don't say you can't count two points for a single event if you pay twice and drive two cars, which is what Keith did that month. So maybe he should have 23 points...just sayin'.


But regardless, unless I'm missing something (which evidently can happen), add your missing point in, and even take away the 1 from Keith, still leaves you in 4th behind him and Roel. 22, 20, 19

[yamaha731]

I don't have a problem with the point total it's that I was told they could not be changed and now your changing keith's 1 to a 6. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this but the rule that hurt me before could now help me and it is your rule

[nc4me]

No, I never did get it to load right.

[Native]

I don't have a problem with the point total it's that I was told they could not be changed and now your changing keith's 1 to a 6. I'm not trying to be a jerk about this but the rule that hurt me before could now help me and it is your rule

My interpretation of the rule was that changes to the points table were to be requested prior to the next event, just as changes to finish position, classing, etc. It was pointed out to be that the actual rule does not say that - it doesn't include point changes. So, in allowing that, I made the point changes. I also apologized to those involved: "... and to all for the misinformation."

In my post above, I also changed the rule for next year, so that stuff like this doesn't happen any more. It's a major PITA. Between you and Keith, I've spent an hour and a half on this, and I have yet to go back, edit the table, and re-post it.

I understand you're feeling as if I'm talking out both sides of my mouth. But I'm not - the correction was made for you, too. Combine your two lines in the points table, and you get a total of 19, up from the published 18. It still puts you in 4th, so the error didn't "hurt" you. 8)

I'll get around to editing and reposting a corrected table later. (Chris, maybe that one will load right??)

[Loren]

I don't think you need a rule on the points table, as it is not a "source" document. If it's wrong, you can prove it's wrong by going back to the event results and correcting it. Maybe a rule that says that the points are final 14 days after the last event?

EVENT RESULTS are what need (and have had) a rule about how soon errors need to be reported and corrected.

[Native]

right, Loren, but the issue that has been presented is that while the results are correct, the points are not being assigned correctly. And since the championship awards are based on points that are calculated from results, the points must be as correct as the results. Or else the above happens, which is why I did exactly as you suggested above: made a rule about points.

Change to Results/Points Rule:
Current rule reads:
"Any corrections for the record – times, finishing positions, classings – must be requested prior to the next event."

New rule is:
"Any corrections for the record – times, finishing positions, classings – must be requested prior to the next event." Point corrections must be requested prior to the next updating of the points table."

Going back over several months' worth of event results and pouring over points tables sucks. I"m not doing it anymore. Waiting 14 days after the last event of the season will only result in what's going on now. If folks care about the points and winning a class, they ought keep a closer eye on the table each time it's updated. The rule as I've written it will hopefully encourage them to do so. Just like event results themselves.

[Loren]

Not to beat a dead horse, but...

The points should be assumed (by you, who compiled them in good faith) to be correct. If an error is found, the "burden of proof" is on the person who found it.

You shouldn't have to pour through months of results, THEY should. If they find a problem, they should simply say "I finished 2nd in THIS event on THIS date, and it shows on the points table as a 3rd place finish, please correct" or "I'm listed twice in the same class on the points sheet, please combine my points".

I'm not suggesting at all that you go back and recheck ALL of the results to verify points. But, if something specific on the points sheet is noted as not matching the event results (source document), it should be corrected.

That said, I don't want to take on the job of points keeper (been there, done that) and if nobody else wants to do so... we have no right to bitch.

[AScoda]

Did someone say there was a dead horse I can beat?

If you run in two different cars, why would your points ever be combined?
Keith ran in the mitsubishi twice and earned 1 point each time, and should be counted as a separate driver/car, not added to his times in his firebird. He didn't run 4 times in that car so those results are inelegible for championship points. Keith should have had 6 points instead of 1 in his firebird, which would give him 21 points for the season, not 22. Give Chris his extra point too and it still doesn't change, as Steve already said.

Take that, horse!

[Loren]

If you run in two different cars, why would your points ever be combined?

Nothing in our rules says (or even should say) that you have to compete in the same car to accrue season points in a class. Just has to be a car that meets the rules for the class.

Now, if you compete in cars that are in DIFFERENT classes, then your points from one class would never be combined with those of another class. But, that's a different situation.

[yamaha731]

I don't have a problem with the out come its the way it should be. Bye the 2nd throw 4th for the year was decided by 5 hundreds of a second in the last race.

[SNAKEATR]

Okay, I'm all for the rule requiring participants to dispute any errors to the results posted prior to the next event. As time passes it becomes increasingly difficult to go back and determine exactly what happened. However, the spreadsheet adding up the points for each event is an entirely different matter. Especially since it is a living document. What happens if the the guy entering the points for June accidently changes an entry for March? How is the guy whose data is messed up supposed to be able to go back and prove when the faulty data was entered? Case in point, my point for the March event was entered on a second line with my name even though I had not driven a second car at an event yet. I only drove the Mitsubishi once, and that was in April. This means the faulty entry for the March event was most likely entered AFTER the April event. That is why I think Loren's proposal to give people until 14 days after the last event makes the most sense. Besides that, who wants to win (or lose) based on a typographical error that can be easily checked by looking at the event results sheet for the month in question?

[Native]

we're all saying the same thing different ways.

What happens if the the guy entering the points for June accidently changes an entry for March? How is the guy whose data is messed up supposed to be able to go back and prove when the faulty data was entered?

Yes, points are entered manually and yes errors can be (are) made. Fact is, we really don't need the table - if the points matter to you, you know what different finishing positions are worth, and what your total point count is. If you look at the table, and find that total doesn't match your total, then like Loren said, figure out where the error is and tell whoever did the data entry. And I'm saying, in the new rule about points, do that check each time the points are updated. Sometimes it is two events before the table gets caught up, but that doesn't change the fact that if you are interested in the points, you should know how many you have before the updated table is posted. And when you check the table, you should be able to tell immediately if there is an error, and can follow it up right then - not 3 or 4 months later.

proposal to give people until 14 days after the last event

the new points rule actually give people more time than that. Say the event is June 1st. Points get updated say June 10th. The event after than is July 7th. You've got from June 10 until some time in July after that event to ask for points corrections from June - up until the points update for the July event is posted. Plenty of time, and not too much back-tracking to do.

[SNAKEATR]

Well, we're all KIND OF saying the same thing. But not exactly. What Loren proposed, and what I agree with, it giving people 14 days after the last event OF THE SEASON to note corrections to the points sheet, not 14 days after the previous event. As you said, sometimes two events take place before the points sheet it updated. I personnally think it's unreasonable to expect someone to keep checking it for accuracy if they don't even know when it's going to be updated.

And when you check the table, you should be able to tell immediately if there is an error, and can follow it up right then - not 3 or 4 months later.

What if the person updating the table in June screws up an entry from the previous February? Does the person affected need to convince everyone that this is a new error and not something he overlooked in February? Listen, I guess anyone can what-if this thing to death. A plan can never account for EVERY what-if scenario. That's why a plan also needs a certain degree of flexibility to account for those unforeseen what-ifs. I think Loren's suggestion of a deadline 14 days after the last event of the season does the best job of doing that. It would be best if we could all agree on what the rule should be, but failing that, I suppose a common understanding of what the rule is would be an improvement.

Steve, I appreciate you volunteering your time to maintain the points sheet, even if you did jack it all up. Yellow_Colorz_PDT_01 Sorry, I couldn't resist jerking your chain just a little bit. Listen, I know you're just trying to make this work to everyone's safisfaction without making it a full time job for yourself. That said, if you're the one keeping the points sheet, then it follows that your vote should carry a little more weight than the rest. That said, I sincerely think that allowing corrections up to 14 days after the last event of the season is the optimal solution. That's really all I have to say on the matter. Just let me know what the official rule is for the new season and let's keep this fun.

[Loren]

I was really hoping someone would pick up my hint and say "I can take over as pointskeeper". Sorry, Steve. 8)

[AScoda]

New rule:

Do whatever Steve says.

[SNAKEATR]

Loren, your previous hint did not go unnoticed, I was just trying really hard to ignore it. As a young platoon leader, I found making the loudest whiner my next volunteer to be an extremely effective leadership technique. Unfortunately, in this particular case I think that would be your's truly. I fully support Steve in keeping the responsibility if he wouldn't mind doing it for another year, but if he doesn't, then the right thing to do would be for someone else to volunteer as Loren hinted earlier. And as the loudest whiner I will tentatively raise my hand while hoping profusely that Steve volunteers for another year of abuse (give him credit as a work duty) or that someone else wouldn't mind doing it.