2011/12 Rule Update Poll

[Jeremy]

I haven't run in stock in 2 years, and don't plan on going back so the rule doesn't really affect me. I didn't even notice the part about restricting camber for all cars.

I believe I did have a valid argument why the rule should not be changed. But we can ignore all that now since it was already discussed and just focus on what to do now that camber kits are allowed.

My current s2000 alignment is
front -1.7
rear -2.2

If my car could get it, I would run -2/-2.5.

The most popular s2000 alignment is known as the UK spec alignment and is -1 front, -2 rear. I believe most of our stock s2000's would be running something like this. There is no reason an s2000 running any of the above alignments should be kicked out of stock.

Scenario #1. Noob comes out to an autocross. He doesn't know what class his car is in. Now we have to ask him how much camber he has? and if he doesn't know then someone has to go out and measure it? Say he wins the class and people start complaining that he had too much camber?

I would say at this point we can either

1. Leave the rule the way it was before when it wasn't broken.
or
2. Simply remove the whole camber measurement all together. Camber kits are legal, run whatever camber you want. No one gets kicked out of their class, if you don't want to run camber you don't have to, and Loren gets to preserve his precious $100 tires.

[Loren]

You're a walking contradiction, my friend.

Before, you said that you were concerned that 2 degrees of camber was too much and would cause wear issues on street tires.

Now you're saying that most S2000's run a minimum of 2 degrees of camber in the rear and you'd personally run -2 front and -2.5 rear.

Make up your mind, man!

Your two options are nifty, but at this point, the members have voted and approved the -1.5 degree limit. We absolutely "could" leave it at that until/unless enough people complain about it.

As for me, I'm not gonna run a lot of camber on my Z4 "because I don't want to hack up my car"! To properly mod it would probably cost more than the tires. This rule really doesn't affect me right now, but it has in the past. With the Yaris, I played with a lot of suspension options, and when I "demodded" it to go back to stock, I ran two events with "stock camber" (less than a degree in the front) and trashed a set of tires in those two events. Then I camber-bolted and got about a degree and a half in front and my new tires were happy. On Brian's car, we "cheated" and slotted the struts. Not for competitive advantage, but to save the tires, they were wearing away way too quickly. $100 tires apparently don't mean much to you, but for some of us, getting a full season out of a set of $100 tires is important. Ripping the edges down to cord in 2-3 events is not an option.

[Jeremy]

You're a walking contradiction, my friend.

Before, you said that you were concerned that 2 degrees of camber was too much and would cause wear issues on street tires.

Now you're saying that most S2000's run a minimum of 2 degrees of camber in the rear and you'd personally run -2 front and -2.5 rear.

Make up your mind, man!

I was talking about the general membership, not for myself. I buy a set of tires about every 8 months, and the insides are always the first to cord. I don't care about my own tire wear. I just want to go fast, if that costs me a set of tires, so be it.

Sorry, I was so focused on why camber kits shouldn't be allowed that I totally didn't even catch the part that ALL cars would be limited. Trust me, I would have brought that up before the vote had I known! But I am cool with it now, keep your camber kits, but don't kick out cars that have factory attainable alignments. It's completely silly.

If this rule stands I am bringing my camber gauge to the September event!!! I am going to be the camber police!!!
S2000's and Miata's look out.

[Loren]

I was talking about the general membership, not for myself. I buy a set of tires about every 8 months, and the insides are always the first to cord. I don't care about my own tire wear. I just want to go fast, if that costs me a set of tires, so be it.

I'm cool with that. And just like we don't decide whether a competitor wants to run 400 treadwear all-season tires to get 40,000 miles of highway life out of their tires or 140 treadwear summer tires that they're lucky to get 20,000 miles out of... we shouldn't be mandating that decision for them.

Sorry, I was so focused on why camber kits shouldn't be allowed that I totally didn't even catch the part that ALL cars would be limited. Trust me, I would have brought that up before the vote had I known! But I am cool with it now, keep your camber kits, but don't kick out cars that have factory attainable alignments. It's completely silly.

As mentioned, that wasn't the intent. I thought that -1.5 degrees would (barely) cover most stock cars, and with 2/10 fudge factor, I didn't think it would be a problem. Looking back into my own Miata notes, I see that the Miata factory spec range is up to -1.7 in the rear, and I know that slightly more than that is attainable with stock suspension. And you're telling me that S2000's typically run -2.0 in the rear, which I wasn't aware of. So, there is justification to change the limit.

If this rule stands I am bringing my camber gauge to the September event!!! I am going to be the camber police!!!
S2000's and Miata's look out.

Would be an interesting exercise. You can check everybody's tires, and snoop out any other disallowed mods while you're at it. Go, you!

[Loren]

Okay, secondary poll to put a couple final issues to bed:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1025" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jev61]

I initially wanted to go with 2.0 degrees, by the way. Then I dialed it back to 1.75 due to some discussion here on the forum (certain people seemed to think that it was way too much of an allowance), and then further stepped it back to 1.5 just to be "conservative".

If anyone shows me a factory spec that is greater than -1.5, I'll expand the rule to include it.

Loren,
If I'm reading my 1999 MX-5 Miata Workshop Manual correctly, it says the front camber angle is adjustable to -1.32 and the rear is adjustable to -2.14 based on ride height from center of wheel to fender brim using OEM springs.

Dan Rasp was not able to match the front camber setting, but the back probably would have gone to -2.0 if I'd asked for it. And in case you are wondering, I have OEM springs.

When I voted yes for this item, I thought it said -1.5 plus or minus -.2 not -.02. Next time, I'll read more closely.

Joe

[Loren]

When I voted yes for this item, I thought it said -1.5 plus or minus -.2 not -.02. Next time, I'll read more closely.

It doesn't say ".02", it says "0.2".

[Jamie]

Ironically, you were the main reason that I backed the limit down from 2 degrees to 1.5.

I'm flattered...probably undeservedly.

It's funny that the two guys who are the most against this rule change are now coming out with how it affects THEM negatively...Not until today did they bring up how a limitation on camber might affect anyone who might be driving a Miata or S2000. The only thing that changed from that discussion was that the camber limit was reduced from 1.75 degrees to 1.5 degrees. Was this not a concern for you when the limit was 1.75 degrees?

Oh, no...you're not saddling either of us with an "I" class label. Jeremy runs with the modified race tire cars no matter what he drives, and I'm perfectly willing to do the same. I simply think it's a poor rule, no matter where you set the limit...but we've been through that, and as you said, it's been voted.

With the Yaris, I played with a lot of suspension options, and when I "demodded" it to go back to stock, I ran two events with "stock camber" (less than a degree in the front) and trashed a set of tires in those two events. Then I camber-bolted and got about a degree and a half in front and my new tires were happy. On Brian's car, we "cheated" and slotted the struts. Not for competitive advantage, but to save the tires, they were wearing away way too quickly. $100 tires apparently don't mean much to you, but for some of us, getting a full season out of a set of $100 tires is important. Ripping the edges down to cord in 2-3 events is not an option.

Brian wasn't having that problem before you started driving his car. My tire allowance is one set per year, so in all the years of driving stock-suspension FWD cars with a geometry-imposed camber near zero and no camber adjustment, I managed to get at least a full season (appx 130 runs) out of the rubber -- street tires or R-compounds. That took some tinkering with tire pressures, and to a lesser extent, shock settings, plus rotating tires every couple of events, but it worked. Seemed to be the same for most of the people I ran with as well.

[Loren]

I'm flattered...probably undeservedly.

While I might not always agree with it, I do value your opinion.

[jev61]

When I voted yes for this item, I thought it said -1.5 plus or minus -.2 not -.02. Next time, I'll read more closely.

It doesn't say ".02", it says "0.2".

Well, yes it does say +/- 0.2. I stand corrected. Thanks for the correction.

Joe

[Loren]

Okay, secondary poll to put a couple final issues to bed:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1025" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only 11 people have voted on the second poll. The votes make the decision clear at this point, but with 29 people voting in the original poll, I expected more.

Poll ends tomorrow.

[AScoda]

With the just for fun competition level we are at, is this going to matter? Where did the big concern over camber come from anyway? I bet most of the people that run with us would not even notice a change in camber.
Just drive that pig, and If you would have been skilled enough to take advantage of .5 degrees of camber, you will do just fine.

[Loren]

You're about a month late to this party, Drew.

[AScoda]

yeah, I voted way back when too, which is why I never looked back here to see that it was still being discussed afterwards.

Note to self-mark topics read when exiting, so old posts don't look new. got it.