Cheap Tire Class

[twistedwankel]

--Spec Tire--

I don't see this class as taking much away from the other classes. Not too many people are going to be interested. But, if we come up with a solid core of at least 4 people who are willing to try it and can agree on a set of rules... why not?

My Hankook H724's cost all of $267 for the set of 4. I could have gone cheaper, but I wanted these because they were particularly light. (15-pound tires on 10-pound wheels on a 2000 pound car is good)

Seems to me we couldn't agree on a specific tire with enough sizes to fit all cars? Most car's tires are going to run $88-150ea in Kumho LX, 600 utqg rated, excellent safe full tread 11/32" tires with alot of sizes 15-19" and V-W speed. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... X+Platinum I have a set of Kumho AST M+S - H speed rated tires mounted for trips with 400 utqg rating but I'd probably have to buy a new set of tires to compete in this new class? So I won't having just bought a new set of 140 tires and wheels.

We need a whole year to set this up so everyone can wear out their existing expensive tires first. Hopefully we can use up some existing cheap tires for the "experimental" PAX to equalize the cars? Neither of my cars have any mods, yet. So I'm starting in a pretty deep hole?

[Loren]

Seems to me we couldn't agree on a specific tire with enough sizes to fit all cars?

Yeap, that's the issue.

Most car's tires are going to run $88-150ea in Kumho LX, 600 utqg rated, excellent safe full tread 11/32" tires with alot of sizes 15-19" and V-W speed. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... X+Platinum

That particular tire has a couple issues. First, it's not available in 14" sizes. Ideally, we need to cover 13-17" sizes... maybe even 18". Then, believe it or not, it's dry grip might be "too good" for the intent of the class. Coupled with ridiculously poor wet grip that would make them miserable for street use.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/cha ... p?ttid=112

I really don't think we're going to find a single model of tire that's going to offer proper fitment for all cars. I'm not even sure that we should try to. I'd rather define allowable tires by a "formula" of some sort. But, even that is difficult. The problem is that smaller sizes, like 13-14 and to a lesser extent 15", don't have any "good" all-season tires to choose from. But, 17-18" sizes have "uber high performance all-season tires" available. Sure, they're still crap compared to a good summer tire... but they're way better than the offerings in something like a 14" size. So, to level the field, we need a "definition" that doesn't allow those kick-ass 17+ "performance all-season" tires. Limiting choices to the Tire Rack's "Grand Touring All Season", "Standard Touring All Season" and "Passenger All Season" categories might do it. Then limit width to the narrowest available stock width with no restriction on aspect ratio.

But, the problem is that to get "equality" in the 14" sizes, you'd have to allow "Performance All Season". In larger sizes, "Touring" tires like the Kumho LX can generate .92G. In 14" sizes, you have to move up to the "Performance" category to get that level of grip.

So, maybe GT, ST & Passenger All Season for 17" and up, and add Performance All Season for 16" and below?

We need a whole year to set this up so everyone can wear out their existing expensive tires first. Hopefully we can use up some existing cheap tires for the "experimental" PAX to equalize the cars? Neither of my cars have any mods, yet. So I'm starting in a pretty deep hole?

You may be onto something with the idea of getting the class on the books early and not expecting much from it for the first year. We can also be a little flexible on the tire requirement (by agreement of the class) for people who show up on OLD used tires that clearly aren't going to be up to their peak performance.

I was really hoping that this class could work as a "head-to-head" class without any indexing. It's just too hard to trust any sort of existing index given that our rules are different and our levels of preparation vary wildly. But, with tires holding us back... power becomes less of a factor. And limiting tire width to the smallest stock option should limit any handling advantage that one car might have over another. I could be wrong on that... but my limited experience with the Z4 on crappy street tires taught me that power gets you NOWHERE in that situation. And my experience with the Miata has taught me that even in an underpowered good-handling car... the tires are going to be the limiting factor. The tires should truly be "the great equalizer" as long as we're careful to not allow any "ringer" tires in.

[twistedwankel]

Back from when I was an asshole:) Some will say: "What do you mean was?"

I used to bring a car to an event and "all" the top runner in each class would drive it under the same conditions. Tire pressure, start out in 2nd gear, whatever to save the car, etc. Once I took two identical cars with different tires and that was totally bizzare but I drove home and had a blow out on a corded tire all the same in the one car with street tires.

In my own cars only ONCE have I been beaten by .002 sec. doing this by a guy who also cheated on his wife (sandbagger?).

Soooooo. What if at lunch break 4 competitors were to drive each other's cars ONE time each? The owner would drive their car once to get the tires warm, tell the others the "deal", gearwise, etc, and make sure the tire pressures were the same every time.

I don't think a person could 'sandbag' as they would get beat in their own car or crazy excel in the others?

My old personal rule is: "If you think I am cheating here are my car keys. Give me yours. We'll see."

No one has ever taken me up on this rule. Probably because I am an asshole.

This would establish the PAX for a given car. +.5 seconds, or - 2 seconds, etc.

Really doesn't matter which tire you have then? It's our PAX racing and as it is?

Yes you ALL 4 can drive my car once to prove this theory!! BUT god damn it don't hit anymore cones under 60F.

[Jamie]

We can also be a little flexible on the tire requirement (by agreement of the class) for people who show up on OLD used tires that clearly aren't going to be up to their peak performance.

Have to, if you want any participation...it's one thing if a set of crappy tires comes with the car, or are leftover from what used to be halfway decent, no one in their right mind (note the qualifier) will go out and spend money on new crappy tires to make themselvers slower!

I was really hoping that this class could work as a "head-to-head" class without any indexing. It's just too hard to trust any sort of existing index given that our rules are different and our levels of preparation vary wildly. But, with tires holding us back... power becomes less of a factor. And limiting tire width to the smallest stock option should limit any handling advantage that one car might have over another. I could be wrong on that... but my limited experience with the Z4 on crappy street tires taught me that power gets you NOWHERE in that situation. And my experience with the Miata has taught me that even in an underpowered good-handling car... the tires are going to be the limiting factor.

Power won't make a difference, but chassis layout, and more importantly, weight will. You'll get substantially different results from FWD and RWD. Camber-challenged cars will suffer more than those with better suspensions. And lighter cars (Miata) will suffer less than heavier ones (Mustang). Might not matter initially, but as people get used to lack of grip, those differences will show up.

[Loren]

Power won't make a difference, but chassis layout, and more importantly, weight will. You'll get substantially different results from FWD and RWD. Camber-challenged cars will suffer more than those with better suspensions. And lighter cars (Miata) will suffer less than heavier ones (Mustang). Might not matter initially, but as people get used to lack of grip, those differences will show up.

I think it would be fun to discover. But, it will probably never happen.

[buddy bodean]

...than heavier ones (Mustang).

Who are you callin' FAT? That's fighting words.
[said the fat guy in the heavy mustang]

[Loren]

Pontiac called it 'road-hugging weight'. How could that be a bad thing?

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

[Jamie]

Who are you callin' FAT?

BMWs. M3s are 3700 lbs now!

[twistedwankel]

Who are you callin' FAT?

BMWs. M3s are 3700 lbs now!

86GT is supposed to weigh 3050 with a full tank of gas = 15.2 LB/HP. Still 0-60 in 6.2 seconds which I find impressive with a 3.27:1 posi and 87 fuel. But it isn't fond of changin' directions rapidly... yet.

I'm supposed to weigh 165 = hahahahaha = I can almost remember those days 3 belts ago.

[twistedwankel]

Power won't make a difference, but chassis layout, and more importantly, weight will. You'll get substantially different results from FWD and RWD. Camber-challenged cars will suffer more than those with better suspensions. And lighter cars (Miata) will suffer less than heavier ones (Mustang). Might not matter initially, but as people get used to lack of grip, those differences will show up.

I think it would be fun to discover. But, it will probably never happen.

Here comes the "what if": We are doing a couple two day non-points events this year. Just suppose we tried this class during one or both of those fun events to get a feel for it? I've all ready got a mounted set of 1/3 worn 400's stock width on 15"x7" rims that I used to autocross on.

I believe as it stands I can stay with Fred at SPC with all wheel steering and torque BUT I think Fred will take the pink slips easily at the Airport where you can run flat out and I do imitations of standing up in a canoe thru the rapids while trying to get the AOD to do something for pete's sake. Kind of like texting and driving.

Nothing ventured.........think about it.

[Jamie]

I wouldn't buy tires for it, but I have a set of worn out 480s on stock wheels...no rush to get rid of them. I've already verified they're crap as autocross tires.

[twistedwankel]

[quote="Loren]
I was really hoping that this class could work as a "head-to-head" class without any indexing. It's just too hard to trust any sort of existing index given that our rules are different and our levels of preparation vary wildly. But, with tires holding us back... power becomes less of a factor. And limiting tire width to the smallest stock option should limit any handling advantage that one car might have over another.[/quote]

In a perfect world we could do like the soapbox derby and get random wheels and tires handed to us every event. But that ain't gonna happen until we all drive Freds or Spec Miatae? Oh yeah that's been quite successfully done hasn't it.

[Loren]

Some of you are assuming completely grip-free tires. But, if anyone were to take the class seriously, they would be on tires capable of .90-.93G. Nothing like the .98-1.02G you can get on a good summer tire, but way more than the .75 or less that is being assumed.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

[twistedwankel]

Some of you are assuming completely grip-free tires. But, if anyone were to take the class seriously, they would be on tires capable of .90-.93G. Nothing like the .98-1.02G you can get on a good summer tire, but way more than the .75 or less that is being assumed.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/cha ... p?ttid=126

Now now. We just happen to own these tires and they are mounted. My AST Kuhmo's are rated at .93 dry and .71 wet BUT they didn't cost me an arm and a leg and are okay in light snow!! Honestly I thought they were okay in the rain as got a 3rd place (only trophy ever) in a heavy downpour at SPC. Only available in higher volume sizes from 15-18" tho'. So if this class gets "traction" (excuse the pun) as a class in the future we allow you to use 15" wheels from a later year of Freds?

Sounds to me like we have a 3 person fun event Class all ready assuming we keep Jamie from throwing out his before that event? Mine will remain on the rack until I need them for a road trip.

[Jamie]

...if anyone were to take the class seriously....

That would imply putting effort and money into prepping the car for it. Effort, maybe...money, nope. As a card-carrying, cheap-ass autocrosser, I'm only spending money on things to go faster.

[Charles]

We could always just break the Miatas out into 2 "spec" classes. Over/under 2.0 liter :-)

[rojeho]

Some of you are assuming completely grip-free tires. But, if anyone were to take the class seriously, they would be on tires capable of .90-.93G. Nothing like the .98-1.02G you can get on a good summer tire, but way more than the .75 or less that is being assumed.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

I guess this is the part I don't understand about the intent. From what you just said, this is about finding the "right" tire to be as unsucky as possible. So this is buying another set, just not as good as RS-3's or R compounds.

[Loren]

The intent, or my vision of the class is for it to be cheap to run, challenging to drive in, and competitive for talented drivers who are up for the challenge.

The hard part (for any class) is writing the rules. It's easy to say "run cheap, narrow, crappy tires". But, at some point, someone will be tire shopping, and they will look for an edge. It is inevitable.

So, while my Intent may be for the tire cost to be $300/set... If the rules don't preclude spending "just another $100" to get an advantage... People will.



Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

[twistedwankel]

400 or greater utqg All Season only for now. Later from a list we provide to cover all sizes needed.

Kumho AST (grandfathered since I own them ), Yokohama, Goodyear/Sumitomo, Hankook, Bridgestone/Firestone, BFG?

Over 3000LB car = 225mm max width tires

2800-3000Lb car = 205mm max width

2600-2800LB car = 195mm max width

Under 2600LB car = 185mm max width

Does that cover everyone? Does that kill the horsepower well enough? We can still get them shaved when new right? 3/32" min tread depth to run this class to allow for wear. That should be just above the wearbars. I really don't see anyone being able to run 11/32" stock treads without chunking and squirming like mad.

Got to start somewhere and weight is great. Don't think you can allow after market rims unless they are same as stock width and plus or minus 1/4" offset like in SCCA.

[twistedwankel]

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... mpare1=yes

As low as $224/set in 14" Fusion

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... mpare1=yes

As low as $188/set in 14" Sumitomo

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.js ... mpare1=yes

As low as $260/set in 14" General

BUT I always wait for sales