Rerun for Red Flag after Off Course?

[Loren]

This poll will remain open until the day before our next Championship event (Feb 14). Whether you're a seasoned autocrosser or new to the game, your opinion matters. Please, vote!

Read each answer carefully, they are sublty different.

Feel free to discuss below.

[Loren]

Okay, here's the deal.

One of the thousand questions I was asked at some point during today's autocross was "Hey, Loren, if a driver DNF's a run and then gets red-flagged later in that run, do they get a rerun?" Without pondering it more than a millisecond, I instinctively answered "No, no rerun for a DNF", and went back to what I was doing. At that time, I did not know that I was not the first or last person to be asked this question today, or that anyone was bothered by the answer.

Later in the day, I received a written "protest" about the issue on the grounds that not giving a rerun in this case was not sportsmanlike and was not addressed in any written rule or during the driver's meeting.

This being the first time I remember ever getting a written protest, I thought it deserved due diligence. But, FAST doesn't really have a protest process, or a protest committee, as we've never had to deal with such a thing before. Thus, I am bringing it to the members of FAST for input. We will act on the results of this poll.

Vote. Discuss.

[Loren]

Just to fuel the discussion or spur some thoughts:

I could go either way on this.

My gut at first sees it from a purely competitive perspective. You took a competition run, you went off-course, your run is done. Now, if you hit CONES during a run and then get red-flagged... you got lucky and get to take your rerun with a clean slate. If it were EASY to do, I'd carry the cone penalty forward to the rerun, but that's not practical and I've never heard of any club doing that. But, a DNF... to me, you're done.

BUT, after giving it more thought... maybe the nature of FAST (the F is for Fun) is such that we should consider a run on the merits of having fun. A driver leaves the starting line expecting to get a complete run, whether they miss a gate somewhere or not. If they are red-flagged, they didn't get a complete run. From that perspective, perhaps a rerun is warranted. I don't feel strongly about it, but I can see that perspective.

Footnote:
FAST does not officially or unofficially run under SCCA rules per se, but they are generally considered "the standard" for most things autocross. Like most clubs, we follow a lot of their standards and procedures, especially regarding event safety. I took a look in the book, and here's the relevant rule from the 2014 SCCA Solo rule book. (emphasis added)

Reruns will be granted only for timing failure, object on the course, red flag, or other situations at the discretion of the Chief Steward and will not be given because of mechanical or other failure of the competitor’s car. A minimum of five (5) minutes must have elapsed before a competitor may take a rerun.

If the Chief Steward or designated representative awards a competitor a provisional rerun, it should be taken as soon as practical, subject to the “five minute rule” above and the discretion of the Chief Steward. The Chief Steward should notify the competitor which run is considered provisional.

Pylon penalties are not carried over to the rerun. A DNF (Did Not Finish) on a run for which a rerun would have been given shall stand and no reruns shall be given.

[Native]

Chime in folks!
A few people I chatted with about it went both ways...

[Solar]

The way I look at it is: if you're hallin' balls through the course, and you may or may not have known you went off course, and then see a red flag and shut it down. Well you're a "lucky dog" and you get a rerun.

We all paid to run the course, we all make mistakes, why penalties the guy that went off course that is just trying to straighten out, be "penalized" for another drivers mistake ?

[nathanwilliams617]

Whether you hit a cone, get lost a bit and DNF seems it's best practice to finish the course at speed. Why, because you get a chance to learn the rest of the course and carry over that knowledge to the next run. So if you get red flagged post DNF, ,because of the G8 that took out a wall of cones, you loose some learning opportunities. Hey but you did DNF.

Proposal: Count the DNF, but also give a rerun that's not counted. Put the very next run in the computer as an instructor run or something. This way the guy gets the DNF, which he/she earned and gets the full run deserved.

[Loren]

I kinda like that idea, Nate. It addresses both pure competition (you DNF'd, you shouldn't get another shot at "competition") and the fun/learning aspect (you went out for a run, but didn't get to complete it).

But, the timing crew has enough to keep up without without handling "special" things like that. I don't see that one happening.

[Charles]

+1 more for Nate if we can figure out how to track it easily.. Doesn't the software have "off" and "dnf"? Maybe use whichever one we don't use normally. This would be a flag that the next time doesn't count.. Even if timing misses this it could be fixed by the results guy. I can't imagine seeing more than 3-4 per event MAX.

[Jamie]

Reruns will be granted only for timing failure, object on the course, red flag, or other situations at the discretion of the Chief Steward....

Pylon penalties are not carried over to the rerun. A DNF (Did Not Finish) on a run for which a rerun would have been given shall stand and no reruns shall be given.

If you read a little further down the SCCA rulebook, you'll also find:

A “DNF” or a time penalty, if so specified in the supplementary regulations, shall be charged for any uncorrected deviation from the course for failing to directly follow the prescribed course route from the stage line through the timing start line or for unnecessarily delaying the event. A course deviation shall not be charged if any part of the car hits a marker defining the limits of the course. A DNF is charged only if part of the course is omitted. In returning to the course after an off-course excursion, it is acceptable to drive a part of the course a second time..

We discourage the practice of salvaging runs by looping back to pick up a missed portion of the course, because it interrupts the event flow, creates a safety issue, and possibly reduces the number of runs, which reduces the fun for most people. If we're going to play by the SCCA rulebook, though, we ought to take all of the related elements, instead of cherry-picking.

Also, in my experience, I've seen that rule ignored (it's not mandatory) more than enforced at most regional SCCA events. Simpler to say, "no penalties are carried forward."

[jbrannon7]

Not included in the poll but happened to me yesterday was I hit some cones on the way out and got red flagged on the way back due to workers on course resetting those cones but did not get or seek a rerun.

Joe

[nc4me]

I don't think a rule is needed and a dnf means no rerun. If you are hauling butt and miss a gate, the part of the course you would be driving at speed will effectively be different for the first 3-5 cones or gates had you driven the course properly because the speed and line going through them will be different. After those 3-5 cones or gates it would help to be able to drive the course at speed, but I still feel a dnf should not get a rerun due to a red flag. I feel you are giving the other driver an unfair advantage by giving them another run. I know the F in FAST is for fun, but if I in my boneheadedness were to miss a gate and then get a rerun I feel it would give me an unfair advantage over the other competitors in my class.

Since Nates idea would be hard to do, maybe we could use our own judgement based on who this happened to. Maybe we could give newbies or less competitive people who are there to have fun a rerun, but we would not give a rerun to someone like Loren, myself, Drew, or other really experienced drivers where it is fun, but we're also competing for class championships in the top three spots in our respective classes. We pretty much know who the experienced people are.

[BrilloHeadBen]

I voted no re-run, and here's why:

If you hit a cone, spin, or otherwise botch a run but stay on course, your time still officially counts regardless of how slow it was. If you DNF, your officially timed run is forfeited right then and there. Why should your forfieted run get a re-run for a red flag after you DNF'd?

[Jamie]

...if I in my boneheadedness were to miss a gate and then get a rerun I feel it would give me an unfair advantage over the other competitors in my class.

The same thing is true if you hit cones and are red-flagged...not carrying the cones into your rerun gives you a competitive advantage you didn't have before. And that does happen! I won a season championship with just such a rerun several years back.

So are you (and Ben) arguing to carry all penalties forward?

[nc4me]

...if I in my boneheadedness were to miss a gate and then get a rerun I feel it would give me an unfair advantage over the other competitors in my class.

The same thing is true if you hit cones and are red-flagged...not carrying the cones into your rerun gives you a competitive advantage you didn't have before. And that does happen! I won a season championship with just such a rerun several years back.

So are you (and Ben) arguing to carry all penalties forward?

In a completely fair world, yes! However, this isn't a completely fair world. I agree with Ben's reasoning in the difference between off course versus cone penalties. One counts as a timed run while the other does not and that's where I personally draw the line in the world we live in.

[Carracer]

I like Nates idea as well, but if that is too much work for timing I would rather just give them a re-run because they didn't get a chance to finish the course at speed.
I'm sure someone could "luck out" with it and bump someone off the podium on the re-run but the guys on the podium don't DNF frequently from what I have seen so I think the odds are low.

[MissAnnThropic666]

I ran off course the first time around and I didn't expect a re-run. That was my mistake. I wish I would have gotten more runs because just as I got comfortable with the course and was picking up better time it was over. I could have done that ALL DAY though and never got bored or tired of it. LoL. Thanks again to the instructors who bravely rode along. Both of you were a HUGE help. I can't wait to do it again.

[garage west]

Proposal: Count the DNF, but also give a rerun that's not counted. Put the very next run in the computer as an instructor run or something. This way the guy gets the DNF, which he/she earned and gets the full run deserved.

This is a good idea.

[twistedwankel]

http://youtu.be/aUz0kTuWBf8 (my current software won't allow shortening videos in the proper format - sorry)

Okay here's my take on this OC red flag rerun issue:

Observe my first tire warming/learning run after walking the course twice and a passenger/guide present.

I am not a novice. I had a "Reserved" spot in Grid. I'm sure many of you got sucked into this sand trap your first run unless you rode with someone first!!

I knew I'd get 5 runs before I even started. My mental fixation is that if I can't do it in 3 runs I've lost due to years of national competition. These events are FUN but that doesn't diminish the level of competition available for points (stickers)!!

You will notice I made no attempt to salvage this run. I got sucked in and never hit a cone, spun out into the dirt or abused the brakes or tires just quickly realized my mistake, blamed Loren and blew off the rest of the course knowing full well what I needed to do the next run:) Blame Loren again

Seeing what I Chose to do (had I gotten a red flag with my flagrant blowing off the rest of the course) do you think I deserve a rerun? I don't. No way. Sometimes when we get 6-8 runs I don't even take all my runs if my times have stagnated just to save tire wear for the next event.

Correct my driver's meeting memory: "1. Newbies are required to have an instructor their first run to keep them on course. 2. They are requested to pit in the back so they can ride with and experience person like me to show them how to go off course properly before their first run. 3. They are encouraged to let an instructor (worker position) drive their car with them in it which doesn't count against their total runs." Okay?

[BrilloHeadBen]

"Jesus Christ! Missed it......................THUMP missed that too!"

[Native]

Proposal: Count the DNF, but also give a rerun that's not counted. Put the very next run in the computer as an instructor run or something. This way the guy gets the DNF, which he/she earned and gets the full run deserved.

This is a good idea.

I also vote for Nate's idea. And for as often as a red flag after a dnf occurs, I disagree that it would be too hard to track. It's not like it happens even twice in a run group. If we can manage to track regular reruns, and instructor runs, we can manage to track this. I'd be curious to hear from the timing regulars what they think.