Dan's Dilemma

[dbeng]

So the new 2016 rules have created a bit of a dilemma for me. I'm getting to the point of needing new tires soon. I was planning on stepping up from my Sumiotomo HTR ZIIIs to some real autocross tires. The stock Mazda 3 size 205/50-17 doesn't have a lot of options, only Bridgestone RE11 or Yoko AD08R. Since FAST is sticking with 140 treadwear I pretty much decided on the AD08 as they have great reviews on line but are still rated at 180 treadwear. I already struggle to make one FAST autocross a month with my work commitments so I don't have any interest in complying with SCCA or any other club rules so 180 treadwear is OK with me.

However, in light of the new tire width limit of 195 in S5 I am reconsidering what to do. The AD08s (or any extreme summer tires) are quite expensive and I don't really feel like swinging for an expensive set of tires just to come last in S4 . In S4 I will be running with a bunch of fundamentally faster cars and of course many will be running "autocross tires".

On the other hand, the FAST rules allow stepping down to 195 tires as long as the car meets the other criteria for S5 which mine does. The problem is my Mazda 3 has 17" rims which are pretty big for 195 tires. A quick look on Tire Rack shows literally only one possible tire - Yokohama's S.Drive in 195/45-17. These are quite a bit cheaper than the AD08s and will allow me to stay in S5 which just seems a better match than S4 for my car . Unfortunately the reviews I have seen for the S.Drives are not as good as the HTR ZIIIs I have now. The Sumis are rated Max Performance which is a step above the Ultra High Performance rating of the S.Drive.

So I'm now leaning towards smaller width, lesser performance tires than I have been running this year rather than my original idea of trying out some sticky tires.
I have heard plenty of times that it is better to learn to autocross with less grip as it helps to improve car control - stickier tires can mask beginners errors and give a false sense of security. I certainly have plenty more learning to do

I know I'm rambling here, and congrats to anyone who made it this far, but I'm looking for suggestions or comments either way. I have absolutely no problem with the new regulations, they are what they are and they are the same for everyone. So the question is what would you do?:
Forget about classing, buy the AD08s, enjoy the increased performance but realistically have no chance of being competitive in S4? Or take a step back in grip and have a chance of some decent times in S5?

And before anyone suggests getting rid of the car and buying a Miata it's not an option

Dan

[Loren]

Your car with good tires would be more capable thank you think in S4. Perhaps not a Miata killer, but if you consistently drive it well, who knows?

Depending on who else does what in S5... going with S.Drives in S5 could likely be less competitive than you'd be in S4! Would definitely be less fun to drive on.

I'm sure you could fit 16" tires on that car, not that the 195 tire choices are any better there. Has anyone fit 15's on the Mazda 3? You could run the Miata size 195/50 RS-3's... that would be a good S5 tire.

If you wanted to compete in S4, 225 RS-3's would probably be the hot ticket. That's more tire than the typical Miata can run. It should fit your wheels barely. If it will clear your fenders and struts, it would work. (and if that's too wide or tall, there's a 215/45-17)

[nc4me]

So the new 2016 rules have created a bit of a dilemma for me. I'm getting to the point of needing new tires soon. I was planning on stepping up from my Sumiotomo HTR ZIIIs to some real autocross tires. The stock Mazda 3 size 205/50-17 doesn't have a lot of options, only Bridgestone RE11 or Yoko AD08R. Since FAST is sticking with 140 treadwear I pretty much decided on the AD08 as they have great reviews on line but are still rated at 180 treadwear. I already struggle to make one FAST autocross a month with my work commitments so I don't have any interest in complying with SCCA or any other club rules so 180 treadwear is OK with me.

However, in light of the new tire width limit of 195 in S5 I am reconsidering what to do. The AD08s (or any extreme summer tires) are quite expensive and I don't really feel like swinging for an expensive set of tires just to come last in S4 . In S4 I will be running with a bunch of fundamentally faster cars and of course many will be running "autocross tires".

On the other hand, the FAST rules allow stepping down to 195 tires as long as the car meets the other criteria for S5 which mine does. The problem is my Mazda 3 has 17" rims which are pretty big for 195 tires. A quick look on Tire Rack shows literally only one possible tire - Yokohama's S.Drive in 195/45-17. These are quite a bit cheaper than the AD08s and will allow me to stay in S5 which just seems a better match than S4 for my car . Unfortunately the reviews I have seen for the S.Drives are not as good as the HTR ZIIIs I have now. The Sumis are rated Max Performance which is a step above the Ultra High Performance rating of the S.Drive.

So I'm now leaning towards smaller width, lesser performance tires than I have been running this year rather than my original idea of trying out some sticky tires.
I have heard plenty of times that it is better to learn to autocross with less grip as it helps to improve car control - stickier tires can mask beginners errors and give a false sense of security. I certainly have plenty more learning to do

I know I'm rambling here, and congrats to anyone who made it this far, but I'm looking for suggestions or comments either way. I have absolutely no problem with the new regulations, they are what they are and they are the same for everyone. So the question is what would you do?:
Forget about classing, buy the AD08s, enjoy the increased performance but realistically have no chance of being competitive in S4? Or take a step back in grip and have a chance of some decent times in S5?

And before anyone suggests getting rid of the car and buying a Miata it's not an option

Dan

It depends. If you really feel like you're getting the most fun out of not so grippy tires and like winning your class (I see you're in first) stay in S5. If you really want to explore your cars potential with grippy tires, take the turns way faster, and maybe not win go to S4. Me personally, I'd bump to S4 to see how fast I could go!

[Loren]

You could also run 225's and play in M4, I believe. So many options.

[ViperTGB]

Dan 17" aren't stock on the MZ3, how wide are your wheels? If you have a 7" wheels you can pick up a set of 225/45/17 BFG Rivals for $500 with shipping, or RS3s for $50 more. A friend of mine with a Focus ST is running them for DD/autoX mixed use and has about 12k miles and about 70 runs on them and they still have quite a bit of tread left. Grab those, a stiffer rear sway bar, and an alignment of 0 toe on all 4 corners (you'll have better tire wear too), and the car will be SOOOO much more fun.

What do you get for winning? Some stickers and a tshirt? It's up to you whether you'd rather win a class with few drivers, not much competition, and a not as fun car - or battle your way through a giant S4 class with a well setup car and a guaranteed bigger smile on your face during each run. I get money is also a factor, but putting the couple hundred dollars aside, I'd highly recommend the latter choice from a fun standpoint.

[Solar]

Trevor, I use 225/45/17 and I'm constantly looking for deals on tires, do you have links for the prices you posted for both ? I can't find Rivals for less than $650 a set plus shipping, and I've found RS3's to be cheaper at $500 a set plus shipping.

Dan, if you do go with 225/45/17 tires I've been using the Federal 595RSR's, they have the same grip as RS3's and the sidewalls are much stiffer and don't roll over like RS3's. Plus you can get a set of Federals for $380 plus shipping, I wouldn't recommend them for daily driving, but they're great for autocrossing.

https://www.onlinetires.com/products/ve ... w+bsw.html

[ViperTGB]

While you will notice a huge difference in grip going to RS3/595RSR/Rival from what you are using now, no matter which you pick - the 595RSRs will be a few tenths slower than the other 2, they don't have the same grip. There is a reason nobody used them at national events when TW rating only had to be 140.

http://m.tirerack.com/tires/TireDetails ... 5WR7GFROLD

Here is the link to Rivals, 112 a tire

[Solar]

While you will notice a huge difference in grip going to RS3/595RSR/Rival from what you are using now, no matter which you pick - the 595RSRs will be a few tenths slower than the other 2, they don't have the same grip. There is a reason nobody used them at national events when TW rating only had to be 140.

http://m.tirerack.com/tires/TireDetails ... 5WR7GFROLD

Here is the link to Rivals, 112 a tire

I beg to differ with you on the grip, my times have been faster on the 595's then they were on the RS3's and I ran RS3's for years, but that's just my opinion. The 595's have a much stiffer sidewall, there's no questioning that, but my car only has 155 hp so it's hard to over drive any tire. I think the biggest issue with the 595's is the brand name and the cheap cost, not a lot of people trust a "low grade" brand. I bought them because I couldn't find anyone at the time that had RS3's in 225/45/17 because the Version 2 RS3's hadn't come out yet, and I couldn't afford the Rivals

The link you have is for Rivals are a closeout price and they were made in 2013, the newer made tires are much more.

On this link you need to go to page 2.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearc ... &zip-code=

[aw614]

I would just move to S4 or like Loren mentioned m4 to keep the stock size tires just for the extra competition. Plus m4 the driver pool isn't as deep, but there is still decent competition to be had. Although I can easily make my Integra fit the S5 classification (Im already running 195 tires and I can change my type r springs back to stock if I can find my rear springs), I bumped myself into the current old M3 due to the solid cars I could compete with.

For the cost and for running local events, the federals are hard to beat. Thinking of trying them next because why not, its lighter on the wallet and I rarely run with SCCA and I don't plan on trophying at nationals anytime soon.

[twistedwankel]

You are young enough to change wheels twice a month.

Pick up a used (or cheap) set of wheels the right size and run the 195's for two seasons or more. Generally aftermarket rims cost me less than the tires so it's kind of a no brainer to get an extra racing set. I got my 17x9's used from a fellow racer for 1/2 price last year.

I picked up the Tirerack "tire rack" for $140 and hung them all up out of the way on the wall in the garage. That also made my wife pleased being tidy.

**If you don't have storage then just have a short discussion with Phillip "the photo" about the virtues of running narrow stones on a stock alignment and old shocks/bushings for a couple seasons. He is now pretty much the guy to beat in any car or class!! He beat me at TBD by .2 seconds in his slightly refined S4 slow boat and I have a well (much better) prepped RX8 in S2. Don't know when he finds time to take all those awesome pix? Maybe he's looking for the perfect lines to drive?

[dbeng]

Thanks all for the feedback, there are some pretty good suggestions either way and I still haven't decided which way to go.

The car is definitely a daily driver that is also used for autocross, rather than an autocross car that is also driven on the road. So I'm not really interested in buying a second set of wheels / tires, autocross alignments etc.- I know an instant win will be adding a rear sway bar (I don't think the stock Mazda 3 has one - only the Mazdaspeed but I haven't really been too bothered to look) but again converting the car into an autocross first, street second vehicle is not my goal.

It does have the stock Mazda 17" rims, but for some reason they are unusually narrow for a 17" at only 6.5" wide. This really limits tire width and explains the stock 205 wide tires. Both Hankook Rs-3s and General RS-Rs are available in 215-45-17. (The Generals at a ridiculously low price of $89ea on Onlintires - close to half the price of the original AD08s I was originally looking at) but the specs for 215 wide tires show they are are for 7-8" wide rims. Would it compress the sidewalls too much on 6.5" wide tires?

The price of the Generals is tempting, but are they really no good for street use & daily driving? The car is actually daily driven by my wife and I don't want to have her flying off the road as soon as it starts raining. This is also the reason I'm not really considering a zero toe alignment as I imagine it requires more input during daily driving without the self centering effect of toe-in. I"m willing to deal with this, but she just wants to get to work. Any comments on what it's like driving with zero toe on the street will be much appreciated.

Thanks again for the input & comments, it's all good information.
Dan.

[nc4me]

Thanks all for the feedback, there are some pretty good suggestions either way and I still haven't decided which way to go.

The car is definitely a daily driver that is also used for autocross, rather than an autocross car that is also driven on the road. So I'm not really interested in buying a second set of wheels / tires, autocross alignments etc.- I know an instant win will be adding a rear sway bar (I don't think the stock Mazda 3 has one - only the Mazdaspeed but I haven't really been too bothered to look) but again converting the car into an autocross first, street second vehicle is not my goal.

It does have the stock Mazda 17" rims, but for some reason they are unusually narrow for a 17" at only 6.5" wide. This really limits tire width and explains the stock 205 wide tires. Both Hankook Rs-3s and General RS-Rs are available in 215-45-17. (The Generals at a ridiculously low price of $89ea on Onlintires - close to half the price of the original AD08s I was originally looking at) but the specs for 215 wide tires show they are are for 7-8" wide rims. Would it compress the sidewalls too much on 6.5" wide tires?

The price of the Generals is tempting, but are they really no good for street use & daily driving? The car is actually daily driven by my wife and I don't want to have her flying off the road as soon as it starts raining. This is also the reason I'm not really considering a zero toe alignment as I imagine it requires more input during daily driving without the self centering effect of toe-in. I"m willing to deal with this, but she just wants to get to work. Any comments on what it's like driving with zero toe on the street will be much appreciated.

Thanks again for the input & comments, it's all good information.
Dan.

If your wife daily drives the car you'd want to go with the best wet weather extreme performance tire out there and I think the Dunlop ZII Star Spec is the best and they are 205/45/17. You don't want to exceed the 205 tire size on 6.5" width wheels. Extreme performance tires already run larger than regular tires and pushing anything more than a 205 would get you no where. Since it's daily driver first (especially since your wife is driving it) and autocross second I would stick with max performance tires in the 205 size. Maybe you can get a better max performance tire. I would highly recommend these http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... Contact+DW or if you want a max performance tire that has grip like an extreme performance tire and money is no object then run these http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... uper+Sport

[nc4me]

Trust me when I say those michelins are pretty much as grippy as extreme performance tires. They are awesome and you won't be disappointed!!!!!

[Loren]

Trust me on this: Adding a rear swaybar (or fitting a larger one) to a FWD car will make you much happier with the car not just at autocross, but in your daily driving. Find one. Order it. Take 5 minutes to install it. Be happy!

Zero toe is fine on the street, it's toe-out that gets a little twitchy. Toe in doesn't self-center, you're thinking of caster, which likely isn't adjustable on your car, anyway. Toe in just makes the car more stable when it is going straight. Unless your daily commute includes a lot of straight line highway driving at speeds over 60 mph, you likely won't notice any negative effects on the street.

Look at tire specs for whatever tire you're looking at. That will tell you what size wheel THAT particular tire in any particular size is engineered to work on. "They" say that being toward the wider wheel end of that spec is better, but that doesn't mean that the narrow end of the spec doesn't work.

And don't forget that your wife is not just any woman (no offense to other women), she is an autocrosser. She knows how to drive the car. Not saying to go extreme or anything, but it doesn't need to have the manners of a 1997 Camry for her to be safe.

Big rear swaybar + zero toe (if you're nervous, try CLOSER to zero toe the first time) + better tires = good times. And I'll second Chris' recommendation of the Conti DW as a fantastic DD tire. They handle wet better than most tires handle dry, simply amazing. And if Chris says they're autocrossable... there ya go.

[Native]

I'll chime in with another vote for a dedicated race wheel/tire combo. Get on the interwebz and find out what the smallest diameter wheel is that'll fit - hopefully it's 15. You can pick up a wheel-tire package in something like a 205 or 225/45 or 50 in a really sticky tire for right around $1000 - or less if you find used wheels. The smaller wheel/tire will weigh a lot less and have a much smaller diameter, which will both enhance the car.

If you insist on using only the stock wheel, then, yes, you'll be ok with a 215 on a 6.5 rim. It is pushing the limit, but it's completely workable.

Your comments about learning to drive with "less" equipment are correct (it's what I've done), but if you're finding that after the season of experience you've got that your equipment is holding you back, it's ok to upgrade. In fact, small refinements can enhance your learning - if the car is too sloppy the learning curve might be too much. A better tire may give you a "boost" and allow your skills to improve even more. It works that way sometimes.

edit: oh, and I also second, or third, the alignment. Do it!

[Solar]

Dan, there's a lot of great info here. Don't over think it though. Like Loren said, a FWD car needs a big rear sway bar. It also needs some sticky tires, and I'd recommend getting them first. You are getting good enough to enjoy tires, deal with the sway bar later.

Get a cheap set of 17" wheels and throw a set of Federals on them, use the wheels strictly for Autocrossing, I did it for a couple years with my Civic Si. It was so much fun, I didn't kick ass right away, but I finished better, and had a ton of fun doing it ! You will notice a huge difference.

[Jamie]

Some first-hand experience:

- I stuffed 225s on 6.5 inch wide rims with the Prelude -- not just R-compounds, but DD street tires as well. Will they perform better than 205s? Depends on the tires...there's a lot of variation out there. But it's physically possible, and the tires don't fly off the rims -- I drove around on 225/50-15 Sumitomo HTR IIs for many years, and ran some autocrosses with them when I didn't have the budget for race tires, too.

- Zero toe is stable even if you have a lot of straight-line, high-speed driving. Both my Prelude and Miata are aligned with zero toe up front (it's spec for the Prelude), and until recently, I did the first 20 miles of my commute (or the last, going the other way) on SR 589. Briskly. It wasn't any unusual effort.

- Changing wheels is less of a chore than it looks, but you do end up accumulating more "stuff" to take with you. Of course, you have a hatchback...it'll swallow everything. Do take Steve's advice, and if you get dedicated wheels and tires, go small -- for one thing, they're lighter and easier to change and store.

[Loren]

We've totally derailed this thread, but that's okay. (I might split the thread later if Steve doesn't beat me to it)

One last thought: Once you get the car aligned, you can tweak the front toe setting yourself. It's VERY easy to do. Before you even spend money on an alignment search around and find out what's adjustable on your car. There may not even be any adjustments in the rear, which means you don't have to worry about it. (at least not for now) That leaves the front, which on a McPherson strut car only has two adjustments: camber and toe. There's so little camber adjustment available that DIY alignment is the way to go. Super easy, will take about an hour of your time. PM me or start a new thread if you want to know more.

I'll agree with Jamie that zero toe is almost never a problem. But, I did have one car that was awful with zero front toe. The Yaris. Super short wheelbase and weird electric power steering. With zero front toe, it felt like most cars feel with 1/8-1/4" toe out. Darty as hell, difficult to drive straight even at 45 mph. But, like I said front toe is the easiest thing to self-adjust. So, if you set it to zero and hate it, you can dial in a tiny bit of toe-in.

[dbeng]

Dan, there's a lot of great info here. Don't over think it though.

So I wish I could pay attention to Brian's comment but I've just spent best part of 4 hours scouring the internet looking at way too many comments, forums & vendors for wheels, tires & sway bars.

Also sorry for the total thread-jack Loren you're right I should have started a new thread for my question but it seemed relevant to this one at the time.

So what did I come up with during all this searching?
First, I've decided I really can't do a second set of rims & tires for AX at the moment. I don't have room to store them - my garage is already full. I spent quite a bit of time looking for 15" rim options and found that some - but not all do clear the calipers on the Mazda 3S but ultimately I'm sticking with the stock rims - at least for this next set of tires. This is something to consider for the future.

I have tried to digest all the great info & suggestions in this thread. Bearing in mind one of my original thoughts was to go with stock sized AD08Rs which come to $775 shipped.

Now I'm looking at options for tires and a rear sway bar that come in at less than or around the same price

Option 1: Stock size 205/50-17 Conti DW $458 shipped + JBR adjustable swaybar at $195 shipped for a total of $653

Option 2: Lower profile Conti DW 205/45-17 $405 shipped + JBR adjustable swaybar at $195 shipped for a total of $600. This is the tire Chris suggested.

Option 3: Push the boundary for tire size to 215/45-17 for Hankook RS-3 (V2) $591 shipped + JBR adjustable swaybar at $195 shipped for a total of $786.

Option 3 comes in at only $30 more than the price I was thinking of paying for AD08s - here I would get extreme summer tires and an upgraded swaybar. Just wondering if the 215s are too wide for autocrossing on 6.5"rims? Jamie has run 225s but Chris suggests maxing out at 205.

Regarding options 1 & 2, maybe these are the sweet spot for now? Conti has a $70 mail in rebate for a set of four which is factored in to these prices. I will get a better performing tire than the Sumis I'm on now plus the swaybar upgrade for a very reasonable price. I can even stay with exactly stock size tires so the speedometer will stay accurate for daily driving, but if the 45 section tires will give better handling I'm happy to go with those. They may help since the slightly smaller circumference will help acceleration and I still have a few RPM in hand at the top end since I've never yet hit the rev limiter at an event.

Once again I open this up for comments & suggestions. I really appreciate all the feedback.
Dan.

[Loren]

Totally relevant, it just blossomed into a big discussion. No biggie. (just no time to split it right now)