What about Race Tire Classes?

[lddavis91]

Yep, prepared for sure. Now maybe you know what it feels like when I try to run my street car Corvette with a few mods in R1, you know, the same class that this would run in:

A Modified.jpg (71.56 KiB) Viewed 4649 times

I do understand your rationale for having just one race tire class for FAST in that you don't have enough people seemingly interested in running race tires at FAST events to consistently make more than one class, however, there could be a bit of a chicken/egg situation at play there was well. Perhaps few people run race tires at FAST events *BECAUSE* FAST classing is not very race tire friendly? When I started running with FAST there were two classes for race tired cars, stock and not-stock. This may have made sense a few years back, but since the SCCA has gone to "street" stock classes now it probably doesn't make as much sense. Combine that with the dramatically increased popularity of the "street touring" classes in recent years and race tires in autocross in general, nationally, is significantly less popular over all.

Two things I have noticed after having run with FAST the past few years:

1. FAST has very few "nationals" type drivers at their events regularly. This seems odd as FAST essentially is "autocross in Tampa Bay", Tampa Bay a metropolitan region of 4 million people. In my previous experience in NC the average club even in metropolitan areas 1/10 the size of Tampa Bay would generally have at least a small handful of "nationals" types.

2. FAST has very few SP/SM type cars. I haven't done a ton of investigation to see if this has changed elsewhere due to the popularity of ST classes but it seemed that the in almost all previous groups that I've run with SP/SM classes were reasonably well represented. And I'm not talking about national level prepped cars/drivers, just locals who like to modify and play with their cars and run them on race tires because, well, race tires are fun. Even running with GCAC or CFR you still see this I believe. Now, FAST does have a full tier of "modified" classes that perhaps covers most of these people and street tires have come a long long ways in the nearly 20 years I've been doing this. But if you look back at this video I posted in the other thread recently it interesting to note how different the make-up of cars were compared to a current FAST AX, and that video was just from a local club in Greensboro NC, hardly a major metro area like Tampa Bay.

So.. Maybe FAST could have two race tire classes? One for all out race cars (SCCA P & M) and one for production based cars (SCCA SP/SM)? Obviously this is a somewhat self serving suggestion as I would like to someday make the vette quieter and bring it back out to FAST events. When I consider running street tires on it instead of race rubber I find a dramatic lack of appropriate sized tires for the car (the widest RE71R for 17" wheels is a 255, 20mm skinnier than my stock size and 60 mm smaller than I what I run on it now and what I desire) Of course even this extra suggested class would result in my having to run against Elliot Harvey in his CSP car, but that is at least somewhat reasonable. Also, I have no idea if this would make any difference in the two observations from above, but I do feel it might make some impact as time progresses.

[Native]

Thanks for the feedback, Les. I'd split this into it's own thread, but I'm not a good moderator and it would take me 30 minutes and several mistakes to figure it out... That said,

I imagine this has thoroughly been discussed at FAST Monday tonight, but my 10 cents worth: Specifically -
1 - FAST has very few "crossover" drivers from any club, let alone "nationals." It's my understanding (but not my direct knowledge) there's enough SCCA action around so that's where the "nationals" go. Also, just to say, we're not about hard-core competition and national championships and such. Sure, we compete, but, as the saying goes, only for "sticker and tshirts." It's just grassroots. To be a national level competitor, once has to competitive to begin with. Maybe that has something to do with it? As for the other clubs, can't explain it either. Other clubs only get a handful of FAST regulars, so it is a two-way street, so to speak. Folks around here seem to play favorites, with a few exceptions.

As for 2 and the rest, FAST has never "marketed" any particular group, except noobs, and they aren't going to be nationals, or driving prepped cars. And even to say we've "marketed" them is a stretch. We certainly encourage, and do push our novice-friendly approach and willingness to train, but we like it that way. If FAST's position in the autocross world is to introduce new folks to the sport, and maybe have some become regulars, or move on to become "nationals" well, so be it. We're good with that.

As for our classes, we have evolved in reaction to who shows up, not the other way around. We have only one race tire class because over previous seasons, we didn't populate the two we had. We didn't always have 4 mod classes or 5 stock classes, either. So if we have a season in which more folks show up on race tires, and it looks like they'll be around, we'll adjust.

And yeah, tire-sizing is frustrating, no doubt. I'd love to run 14 inch street tires...no choices.

[AScoda]

Not only have the sticky street tires become so so good, the cars have too. In BM times, (that is Before Miata) you had to do lots of modifications and/or put race tires on most cars to be really fast and, of course, have more fun. Now in AM times, anyone can pick up a cheap Miata or any number of well handling cars made in the last 20 years, and do nothing but throw on some good street tires and do pretty well.
A stock Miata vs Elliot's Datsun in it's original stock form--Elliot likely gets smoked.

[Loren]

I'd split this into it's own thread, but I'm not a good moderator and it would take me 30 minutes and several mistakes to figure it out...

Moderated!

Okay, the short answer:

We've had more race tire classes. We used to have THREE of them. We had Production Stock, Production Modified, and Race Car. Seemed like a fairly equitable distribution for a small club. But, we simply don't get race tire competitors! So, first we consolidated to two classes, Production and Modified... and even that was still too much. Now we have just one Race Tire class, and it really only had two competitors last season. Of those competitors, none attended more than half of all events.

In a nutshell, you're asking us to resolve a problem that doesn't exist.

"If you build it, they will come."

We built it. They didn't come. Now, it's up to them. If they come, we will build it!

Show me race tire competitors in need of classes, we'll certainly make it happen. But, until that happens, we have no need for more race tire classes.

As a footnote: You've WON the R1 class for the past 3 years. If we split the class, you'll go from having little competition, to having NONE. Is that what you're after? I'm not understanding the complaint.

[Jamie]

Perhaps few people run race tires at FAST events *BECAUSE* FAST classing is not very race tire friendly? When I started running with FAST there were two classes for race tired cars, stock and not-stock.

And shortly before that, there were three race tire classes -- two for stock and one for modified. As Steve said, they were pinched off because no one was entering.

Two things I have noticed after having run with FAST the past few years:

1. FAST has very few "nationals" type drivers at their events regularly. This seems odd as FAST essentially is "autocross in Tampa Bay", Tampa Bay a metropolitan region of 4 million people. In my previous experience in NC the average club even in metropolitan areas 1/10 the size of Tampa Bay would generally have at least a small handful of "nationals" types.

Central Florida Region runs a more active program than you give them credit for, especially if you count the East Coast events. That's the "national competitor" support structure in this part of the country. And we get a bit of cross-over -- Elliot Harvey and Ken Marion are fairly regular; Trevor Renson was last year; Brian Meyers and Dat Nguyen stop in often enough to show up in the points. Central Florida is also a pretty saturated market -- within three hours of Tampa, you have two SCCA regions, FAST, Martin SCC, GCAC, and a couple of marque clubs running events. That's quite a bit of action within easy reach.

2. FAST has very few SP/SM type cars. I haven't done a ton of investigation to see if this has changed elsewhere due to the popularity of ST classes but it seemed that the in almost all previous groups that I've run with SP/SM classes were reasonably well represented. And I'm not talking about national level prepped cars/drivers, just locals who like to modify and play with their cars and run them on race tires because, well, race tires are fun. Even running with GCAC or CFR you still see this I believe. Now, FAST does have a full tier of "modified" classes that perhaps covers most of these people and street tires have come a long long ways in the nearly 20 years I've been doing this. But if you look back at this video I posted in the other thread recently it interesting to note how different the make-up of cars were compared to a current FAST AX, and that video was just from a local club in Greensboro NC, hardly a major metro area like Tampa Bay.

Looking at yesterday's CFR roster, I see 20 SP/SM/P/M cars, and I'm not certain all were on race tires...but all were eligible. That was just under 20% of the field. Orlando events tend to collect everyone because of the central location -- the ratio at CFR Brooksville events is smaller.

Over the years, I've had occasion to be a regular in six different SCCA regions, including two jumbos, and about as many independent clubs. What I learned from that is if you've seen one club, you've seen one club. Making comparisons across is very difficult, even in places of similar population. The race car demographics of San Francisco Region are nothing like D.C. Region. In fact, SFR now isn't like it was when I was there.

So.. Maybe FAST could have two race tire classes? One for all out race cars (SCCA P & M) and one for production based cars (SCCA SP/SM)?

Can't argue with the sentiment...it's not like the extra sticker each event would break the bank.

[Carracer]

If we ran SCCA classing I think we would have more "nationals" guys. The biggest thing I notice between FAST and any other clubs is the cars. We don't have nearly as many cars built to "class". It seems much more of a "Run What Ya Brung" kind of deal.

[Loren]

I was thinking we used to have four race tire classes. Had a minute and looked it up on this great historical reference of a forum that we have here. We became FAST in 2007, and set our initial classes at that time. It came to a conclusion right here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6

These were our original classes:

A - Modified race tire (all)
B- Production race tire 3 liters and greater
C - Production race tire less than 3 liters
D - Modified street tire 3 liters and greater
E - Modified street tire less than 3 liters
F - Production street tire 3 liters and greater
G - Production street tire less than 3 liters
R - Open or closed wheel race cars (all)

Fully HALF of our original classes were race tire classes. It just turned out that our group gravitates strongly toward street tires.

[lddavis91]

As a footnote: You've WON the R1 class for the past 3 years. If we split the class, you'll go from having little competition, to having NONE. Is that what you're after? I'm not understanding the complaint.

Not sure why you even interpreted my post as a "complaint". I made some observations and made a suggestion all quite loosely and intended to be in a conversational tone. Primarily I recently dug up that video from 1997 and if reminded me of how different things used to be and had me feeling nostalgic.

First and foremost, I am a "car guy" and I like cool hardware, not so much a "wannabe racer". I've never really had much "racing" aspirations beyond having some cool hardware and flogging it for fun on occasion, the second part is very important as I'm not a "hard parker" and think that whole scene is kinda silly. I always looked at the old guys cruising around in their Corvettes when I was young as kinda silly, most of them too scared to ever floor even those relatively pathetic Corvettes. Then I went to my first autocross in 1997 and saw Roger Garrett flogging the hell out of his bad black Hoosier shod C4 ZR1 and the guy in the yellow TVR and I thought, wow! perfect! Been hooked ever since.

Essentially, I missing the "good ole days" I guess. I live in Tampa Bay now, hopefully for a long, long time and I love running with FAST. You make it super easy for a lazy guy like myself. And while we do have some pretty cool hardware and fast drivers that show up at our events, it seems some of that element is missing. Mostly just thinking out loud about how and why in a metro area of 4 million people that this seems to be under-represented. I'm not looking for more stickers or t-shirts, as you stated, I'm R1 champion three times running, that however is a due to a lack of regular competition, effectively I'm actually looking for more competition and likely fewer stickers and tshirts.

[lddavis91]

If we ran SCCA classing I think we would have more "nationals" guys. The biggest thing I notice between FAST and any other clubs is the cars. We don't have nearly as many cars built to "class". It seems much more of a "Run What Ya Brung" kind of deal.

Phillip is probably right here, the biggest difference maker is likely the fact that FAST has its only classing structure. I'm no lover of the SCCA and their classing leaves something to be desired much of the time, but their classing does seem to be pretty much universal with anything outside of NASA-X. Over the years I've run with nearly 10 different independent sports car/autocross clubs and they have all used SCCA classing. FAST is the only group I've encountered with their own rules/classing, but it is a successful group regardless of the competitive makeup, so I guess that is all that matters.