Expanding S5?

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Expanding S5?

Postby jaball77 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:18 am

Looking at the current FAST rules, it seems like a lot of H Street cars are kinda screwed.

My Accord, for instance is an HS car and comes factory with 215mm tires. Same with something like the non-ST/RS Focus, Mazda6, Toyota Matrix (and iM), Golf TDI, Civic Sport, etc, etc. There's a ton of cars that have zero chance against the ES cars in S4 and due to tire size aren't eligible for S5.

Could we just remove the tire restriction for HS cars in S5 and make them all eligible regardless of tire size? Give HS cars a place be competitive (even if it is among Miatas)?
Last edited by jaball77 on Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Expanding S5?

Postby Native » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:43 am

Feel free to discuss, but, since we just started a new points season, we won't be making any rule changes until next year...

That said, this quote:
"And it would be great for HS to be its own class, but we don't get enough HS cars to make a class. That's why S5 is what it is... a mix of S4 cars with smaller tires. That experiment seems to be paying off, S5 is a fun class, whereas a "Just HS" class would be much smaller."

came from this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2798
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Expanding S5?

Postby jaball77 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:26 am

Native wrote:Feel free to discuss, but, since we just started a new points season, we won't be making any rule changes until next year...

That said, this quote:
"And it would be great for HS to be its own class, but we don't get enough HS cars to make a class. That's why S5 is what it is... a mix of S4 cars with smaller tires. That experiment seems to be paying off, S5 is a fun class, whereas a "Just HS" class would be much smaller."

came from this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2798
*Edited my original post for clarity*
Sorry if I wasn't clear... Not advocating a new or separate class, just letting HS cars use any width tires in S5...
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Expanding S5?

Postby Loren » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:46 am

In a word, no. S5 is as healthy as it's ever been. And the purpose of the class is to give the truly slow cars a place to play. Take away the tire restriction and it becomes almost exactly as fast as S4.

SCCA has forsaken any car that is slower than whatever is currently winning HS. We don't want to.

Now, if you want to suggest that S4 could split into S4.5, I'd listen to that. But, I think S4 is mostly Miatas, anyway. Are there enough wide tire HS cars to make a class?

Not gonna break the S5 concept, though.
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Expanding S5?

Postby jaball77 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:57 am

Loren wrote:Now, if you want to suggest that S4 could split into S4.5, I'd listen to that. But, I think S4 is mostly Miatas, anyway. Are there enough wide tire HS cars to make a class?
Looks like 6 in S4 this past weekend.
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Expanding S5?

Postby Loren » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:05 pm

Keep tabs on it. Encourage that "target market" to attend. If the numbers are there, we could do it next season.
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Expanding S5?

Postby twistedwankel » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:39 pm

Agreed. It's a lot easier/cheaper to mod any miata than an Accord to run it in Mod or Street. Even the open diff is a cheap mod for S5. I petitioned the SCCA once to allow gutting/replacement of my plugged stock pre-cat due to non-availability for F Stock. I was told by Howard Duncan: "That's why we have the prepared classes - even though the performance benefit is minimal we cannot allow it." Sadly that is an expensive can of worms for an uncommon stock car. Then they invented Street Mod and I found a new home with unlimited boost and giant wheels w/R tires:)

I think Loren has successfully proven you can take any shitbox and eventually turn it into a FAST stock S5 momentum autocross car pedal to the metal 100% of the time. At least in FAST you can. I actually read the reviews on the new 2015 Mirage from Consumer Reports: But the driving experience falls short on just about every other count. Acceleration from the sputtering and vibrating engine is sluggish. Engine noise and coarse vibrations also fill the miniscule cabin. While subcompacts are usually nimble, the Mirage's handling is so clumsy several testers found it disconcerting. On top of that, the interior feels drab, cheap, and insubstantial. Overall, it seems the Mirage was designed to put cost first and everything else second. With a tally of only 29 points, it was the lowest scoring car we'd tested in a very long time. :lol:

The first time I watched Loren race that thing bone stock I thought it was going to end up on it's top around the loop. I would have banned it or made a Tower of Pisa class requiring out riggers. NRV (no redeeming virtue) class would be a clock eater and slow the event to a snail's pace. Maybe next year you can put up a poll for the membership at the top of this item?

My wife's Moby Dick ends up last in S3 no matter what I undo or updo to it but it's a riot to drive at Classic events.
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Expanding S5?

Postby Jamie » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:53 pm

Loren wrote:In a word, no. S5 is as healthy as it's ever been. And the purpose of the class is to give the truly slow cars a place to play.

Not gonna break the S5 concept, though.
Be serious...it was broken as soon as you let ES cars into that playground. And don't hold up the Mirage as a counter-example...you've taken a slow car, made some custom modifications, and stuck a substantially better driver than the rest of the class behind the wheel. If you jumped into even the most basically prepared Miata, you'd outrun anything you could do in the Mirage.
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Expanding S5?

Postby Loren » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:00 am

Be that as it may, S5 has turned into a fairly popular class, and lesser cars (well prepared and well driven) CAN compete there a lot easier than they could in S4, or in straight up HS. It's not perfect, but it has enough competition to be both viable and fun.

The Miata is certainly the "easy button" competitive option for S5 (or S4, or M4, or M3)... But, I'm not convinced that anything of similar weigh and power with a little bit of setup can't also be competitive.
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Expanding S5?

Postby Doug » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:18 pm

More HS cars might enter if no miatas and no tire limit
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