2019 Rule Change Ideas

[Loren]

It's getting close to May, good time to start thinking about anything we might want to change for the coming season. It's always good to get those things finalized before July if at all possible.

Steve and I have discussed, and we're pretty happy with the current state of things. The class shuffle that happened this year (following SCCA's lead) worked out pretty well. Classes seem well-matched and well-subscribed, great competition! And the minor prep rule changes that we made last season (205 tires in M4 and limitation on fender rolling in Stock) haven't been a problem.

We revamped the points system for this season, and that seems to be working well, too. If anyone sees a problem with it, we can discuss. But, it seems to have had the desired effect. The number of drivers who are "in the hunt" for season trophy positions is much larger than it use to be. Competition is tighter.

So, we're in good shape! Nothing is jumping out at us as being "in need of a fix".

But, we're open to ideas if anyone has any. No guarantee that we'll follow through on your ideas, but we'll discuss as-warranted.

Steve and I do have one new idea. I'll introduce shortly.

[Loren]

I thought this one warranted its own thread for discussion, or at least to not take over this thread.

Steve and I are considering a change to the Mod category rule about adding forced induction. Read and Discuss here.

[twistedwankel]

In the occassional lesser subscribed class of R1 mostly due to rain/temp issues and bald fat tires on fast cars it is possible to only have 1 competitor (came really close once so far). This would mean only 2pts for showing up? That would be a throw away event so can there be a minimum 4-6 pts for a lone competitor in any class to at least warrant coming in say an old Crown Vic with AS tires? One unnamed person actually did borrow a full tread M car and left theirs on the trailer to gain pts in the wet.

Current Points Standings
FAST Season 2018 1st Place = #Cars in Class x 2 up to a maximum of 12 2nd Place = 1st Place points minus two 3rd and Below = one point less for each position, minimum 1 point A drivers 3 lowest scoring events will be dropped.

[Loren]

If you're in a one-car class, you're gaining two points on all of your competitors who didn't show up. Just as you would if you finished first with one or more competitors. Why do you need more? You get zero if you don't run. Get get "winner" points if you do run. I'm not seeing the problem.

to at least warrant coming

This is a completely anti-FAST statement. The reason we come to autocross is because it's FUN and we like to do it. Sure, it's more fun when we have competition in our class or whatever... but, if you need a reason to come... because autocross! You get to drive fast and hang out with cool people.

Nothing wrong with choosing tires or even vehicle based on weather. Most of us don't have many options, but it's certainly not against the rules to choose to put on "rain tires", or opt to drive a different car. As long as the car is eligible for the class, of course.

[twistedwankel]

twistedwankel wrote:to at least warrant coming

This is a completely anti-FAST statement. The reason we come to autocross is because it's FUN and we like to do it. Sure, it's more fun when we have competition in our class or whatever... but, if you need a reason to come... because autocross! You get to drive fast and hang out with cool people.

I thought the main idea behind changing the points in the first place was to benefit those who show up the most? So now I see no point in changing the original points method from 9-6-4-3-1 where the lone participant would get 9pts.

[Loren]

I think you might have understood that in reverse.

We wanted more people to not be hopelessly lost at the bottom of the points. Used to be we would have 2 or 3 drivers at the top and then a big gap in points, then everybody else. Now we have 5-6 drivers at the top, and less of a gap to everyone else.

[twistedwankel]

Either way I'll still get a T-shirt and keep my number probably if I don't even finish out the last four events of the season (and drop nothing) because those low/medium numbers never showed again. Would be nice to still get more than 2pts for first place and say Elliot was too scared to show up for one event

The top names will not change to protect the slow from getting over confident. Are participation awards in the making yet?

[twistedwankel]

Everyone gets 1 pt no matter where they finished.

[Native]

^^^ Yup. Participation award.

[mdw1000]

I propose moving all Mitsubishi Mirages and cars driven by Phillip to R1 [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]

[Loren]

Couple more ideas that have come up:

Allowing engine swaps in Modified -- Do we need to?
What if we drop the engine swap rule? 1.8-swapped early Miatas are pretty rare these days. (they were one of the big considerations when that rule first came up) Most people just buy the proper car to start with any more. (because old Miatas are ALL cheap now) I'm not sure I can think of anyone who would be affected by dropping that allowance. Pretty sure Les is running a stock engine that's been bored and stroked into next week... but I don't think it's a swap. (could be wrong) Charles swapped his 240, but it's bumped due to the added turbo, anyway. So, it wouldn't affect him.

Cars included in M4
M4 currently includes ES/GS/HS. We included ES in there for one reason only: to try to improve the participation numbers in the class, to ensure its survival. We've had one or two Miatas run in the class, but none of them stick around. The call of wider tires and a Torsen is too strong, I guess? But, maybe we should consider dropping ES from the mix. (there are precious few car models in ES, btw... all of them are light/nimble low-powered 80's-90's vintage sports cars or similar) It never was a really good fit, anyway. And the class seems to be standing on its own pretty well with GS/HS cars.

[BigBlue]

I was never a fan of the engine swap rule. That is a fairly massive loophole in my opinion. And M4 seems to be doing pretty well this season with the turnout.

[aw614]

I can see how to exploit the rule fully with some cars and it gave me some crazy ideas reading the thread But I always liked fast's classing being more flexible in the mod and stock classes. And reading the thread, I can see the miata 1.6 to 1.8 swap still staying in M3 vs going to M2. I think the concern is if a v8 or v6 swapped miata competes, does that keep it in m3? But a turbo miata is bumped to m2?

I guess my motor swap might be a similar case to the miata 1.6 to 1.8 swap? I recall aaron parke's gsr being in the same class as my car (m4 when I was open diff) before I did the swap and I basically did the same motor swap but with slightly high comp pistons and cams that put me within that 25% power increase of the gsr motor, but over 25% of my original motor.

Maybe the limit is to keep the n/a motor swap based on manufacturer only and a class bump for a hybrid motor swap?

[Loren]

Moved the above post from the "Adding Boost in Modified" thread because... well, it has nothing to do with that.

I can see how to exploit the rule fully with some cars and it gave me some crazy ideas reading the thread But I always liked fast's classing being more flexible in the mod and stock classes. And reading the thread, I can see the miata 1.6 to 1.8 swap still staying in M3 vs going to M2. I think the concern is if a v8 or v6 swapped miata competes, does that keep it in m3? But a turbo miata is bumped to m2?

The "no bump" swap must produce no more than 25% more power than the stock engine. If you can find a 135 hp V8 to put into your 1.6 Miata... that would currently be legit. And if you go back to the 60's or 70's, you can probably find such an engine... and then hot-rod it up. As has been noted, the swap rule is ripe for exploitation.

I guess my motor swap might be a similar case to the miata 1.6 to 1.8 swap? I recall aaron parke's gsr being in the same class as my car (m4 when I was open diff) before I did the swap and I basically did the same motor swap but with slightly high comp pistons and cams that put me within that 25% power increase of the gsr motor, but over 25% of my original motor.

Ah-hah... so there are some Honda guys taking advantage of this engine swap allowance. And legitimately so.

Maybe the limit is to keep the n/a motor swap based on manufacturer only and a class bump for a hybrid motor swap?

Same MFR makes little difference. Honda, for instance, makes V6's. As does Mazda, and Toyota and Ford...

Limiting it to same number of cylinders would probably help, though.

[BrilloHeadBen]

How about, if you swap in a motor that also came in your car, you go to whatever class that version of the car is in. For example, 4 cylinder Fox Body mustang gets a typical 5.0 swap? It get's classed like it's a GT.

[Loren]

Could simplify further and just say "bump to the donor class".

[BrilloHeadBen]

Could simplify further and just say "bump to the donor class".

I knew there was a simpler way to put it.

[Loren]

Here's the current swap rule:
Bump to donor class OR up one class (whichever is higher) for a significant (+25% HP increase) engine swap that is not a common bolt-in swap that results in a factory-available (US market) configuration.

It actually already gives an out for the "common bolt-in swap".

If we added "Donor engine must be of the same manufacturer and same number of cylinders", would that cover it? Would need to rewrite that whole thing to simplify it. But, that's the gist of it. Would mostly close the loophole. No crazy engine swaps. Even though they are a hoot.

[twistedwankel]

Any number of the not allowed upgrades are probably unenforceable on site as not enough time in tech. Probably just as well to do Mod cars on a case by case basis and not give them any more ideas? Here's the list if anyone wants a refresher. Guess it's up to the other class competitors judgement to look the other way or not?

Class Progression
Certain modifications will result in a car being classified in a higher class than normal.
Bump up one class for adding forced induction (turbo or supercharger)
Bump up one class for any of the following on a car with factory forced induction:
Any change to the Turbo or Supercharger
Any change to Fuel Injectors or Fuel Pressure
Any added Injection of any type (water, methanol, fuel, etc)
Changes to both the Intercooler AND Boost Control — can do either one, but not both. (Boost Control includes changes to electronic boost control. Intercooler does not include piping.)
Any internal engine modifications
Any change to gear ratios (transmission or final drive)
(Intake, exhaust and computer tuning are permitted)
Bump to donor class OR up one class (whichever is higher) for a significant (+25% HP increase) engine swap that is not a common bolt-in swap that results in a factory-available (US market) configuration.
A car will only be bumped up one class, bumping is not “stacked”. An engine swap AND adding a turbo would be a single class bump.

[CaptainSquirts]

So currently modifying exhaust is fine. Does that include exhaust manifold and o2 housing? Also the 25% above rule. Is that only applicable if it's from an engine swap?