Modified Street Tire Classes - What to do?

[Anonymous]

engine swaps?

[Loren]

Yep. That would be wise to address.

Bump up a class for a displacement change of more than... 500cc?

I don't see the need to reclass for a basic swap like a Miata 1.6>1.8 or Toyota 1.5>1.8 or anything along those lines.

Or bump to the class that has the appropriate catch-all?

[Charles]

engine swaps?

yup, engine swaps and/or added forced induction in the process....

Mine's an oddball example but factory motor was a 2.4L , my swapped SR is only a 2.0L and with very minimal mods is putting out ~ 100hp more than that 2.4.

So in this example I would only be bumped once for going turbo because displacement on the swap went down?


Another example is Kenny's Suby........... I guess he wouldn't get bumped at all.
I think he's still running a 2.0 and Turbo (same as factory) even with a 100+hp bump from his swap.

I know we will never cover everything and it's rare to see more than 3 swapped 240's at any event including mine, but just throwing these examples out there.

I won't complain one way or another......

[Anonymous]

Why does Kenny have to ruin everything?

He has an ESP car, but he has swapped the engine from a BSP car (sorta). So Kenny would end up in BSP with the STi.

I guess we would need to bump to the donor class for engine swaps, then add on a forced induction penalty after that if applicable.

Someone could take a crap civic (FSP), add a vtec motor (from a DSP car), that would bump them up one class, then add a turbo and that would bump them up to the top class.

And that makes sense to me.

[Anonymous]

Results from last 2 events using SCCA Street Prepared classes.

Code: Select all

Brooksville December

Class 1 (ASP/BSP/CSP)
1) Ronald Croft    04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 74.629   BSP
2) Jason Ball      06 Mazda Miata     75.274   CSP
3) Charles Stowe   240sx              76.611   DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1
4) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX      77.751   ESP, with BSP swap bumps to class 1
5) Ron Marchini    04 Honda S2000     79.263   BSP
6) Victor Crichton 01 BMW M Roadster  79.286   ASP
7) Brian Bode      01 Honda S2000     77.862+1 BSP
8) Philip Hart     94 Mazda Miata     84.222   CSP
9)John Kilpatrick 95 Nissan 240sx    86.525+1 DSP  assuming bump for turbo added? 


Class 2 (DSP/ESP)
1) Andrew Scoda   87 Ford Mustang     76.790   ESP
2) Jeff Girardello 9 Ford Mustang Gt  76.859   ESP 
3) Rydell Huff     1 Impreza 2.5RS    80.234   DSP


Class 3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams  07 Sloyota Yaris   77.617   FSP


SPC January

Class 1 (ASP/BSP/CSP)
1) Ronald Croft    04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 60.591   BSP
2) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX      61.353   ESP, with BSP swap, bumps to class 1
3) Mark Jones      96 Mazda Miata     64.635   CSP
4) Carl McKim      96 Mazda Miata     65.620   CSP
5) Ron Marchini    04 Honda S2000     63.717+1 BSP
6) Brian Bode      01 Honda S2000     64.746+1 BSP
7) Juan Rodriguez  04 Mazda RX8       64.797+1 BSP
8) Tim Allen       93 Mazda Miata     66.859   CSP
9) William Ensminge96 Nissan 240sx    68.803+1 DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1
10) Doug Anderson   Nissan 240sx       75.375   DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1
 

Class 2 (DSP/ESP)
1) Rydell Huff     1 Impreza 2.5RS    62.723   DSP
2) Robert Vincent  05 Legacy GT       63.503   ESP
3) Andrew Scoda    87 Ford Mustang    63.994   ESP
4) John Kucek      00 Honda Civic Si  63.831+1 DSP
5) Jeff Greenhaus  Acura Integra      64.013+2 DSP
6) Chris Wells     00 Honda Civic     68.034+1 FSP, turbo add bumps to class 2 
7) Keith Pecha     Pontiac Firebird   72.297   ESP
8) John Dellacosta Ford Mustang       71.327+2 ESP
9) Lisa Vlaming    91 Honda Prelude   91.758+5 DSP


Class 3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams  07 Sloyota Yaris   61.633   FSP
2) Evan Warner     04 Ford Focus      67.458   FSP
3) Michael Houtz   99 Toyota Corolla  68.996   FSP
4) Mark Warner     Ford Focus         65.455+2 FSP
5) Jeff Klein      Toyota Carolla GTS 80.461+1 FSP

[Anonymous]

And I wouldn't worry about using SCCA classing...

1. They (corporate) don't like it, but there is nothing they can do.
2. Yes it changes (every 5 years there is some kind of shake-up), but you just have to check a pdf once a year and make sure your car is still in the same class.
3. You aren't going to lose anyone to the SCCA. There is a large possibility SCCA won't even exist in Tampa next year. It almost didn't make it this year.
4. Gulfcoast AX is an independent club in Ft. Myers that uses straight SCCA classing and as far as I know, they don't have any problems.

[Loren]

Regarding bumping to the donor car class for an engine swap:

That works if the donor car is in a higher class, like the STI swap. But, what if it's a swap to an engine from the same class? We've got DSP and ESP lumped together... so let's say someone takes a DSP BMW and does a V8 swap from a Mustang GT. (it could happen!) That car needs to bump up a class.

I think it would be simpler just to do an across the board class bump for any significant engine swap. Significant = adding cylinders or more than a certain amount of displacement.

Maaaaybe if someone took an FSP car and did a BIG engine swap on it, it might warrant a 2-class bump... but I kinda doubt it. (but if they flared the fenders, put big meats on it, and did up the suspension... maybe)

We can add a "program director's discretion" clause to catch silly stuff like that. Like Lisa's Prelude should be in FSP. (but if she had big fat tires and an awesome suspension, she should be in DSP)

I like the way this is shaping up better than I thought I would. Is it worth the effort to try to retroactively rework this season's events so far (4 events) to use a new system, or do we just ride it out until August and make it happen next season?

And, lest anyone think I'm supporting this to get a trophy in the new bottom-feeder class, unless Rydell doesn't want me in his class , I'd be happy running in the middle class. Give someone else a chance to do something meaningful in the lower class. I'll just lie and say I added a turbo. (most of the newbs think I did, anyway!)

[Dave-ROR]

I think it would be simpler just to do an across the board class bump for any significant engine swap. Significant = adding cylinders or more than a certain amount of displacement.

That still leaves Kenny, he didn't increase the # of cylinders or displacement...

Maaaaybe if someone took an FSP car and did a BIG engine swap on it, it might warrant a 2-class bump... but I kinda doubt it. (but if they flared the fenders, put big meats on it, and did up the suspension... maybe)

We can add a "program director's discretion" clause to catch silly stuff like that. Like Lisa's Prelude should be in FSP. (but if she had big fat tires and an awesome suspension, she should be in DSP)

Sounds like the old NASA points thing...

[Alizarin]

I'm having deja-vu for some reason to last year. Replace "Class E" with "Class G" in Loren's first post and it's like you're stuck in a time warp!

And Loren, if you just make the rule for a "significant" engine swap, I stay in the middle class (2) by the rules you put down. Fine with me, since I don't have to compete against Ron.

[Loren]

I don't know the details of your swap, Kenny... but even if it's an STI swap and the STI is a BSP car... could you have achieved the same power with just a turbo and computer upgrade and keeping the same engine you had? (I mean, before you munched the bearings, of course) If so, then does it really warrant a class bump?

[Dave-ROR]

I don't know the details of your swap, Kenny... but even if it's an STI swap and the STI is a BSP car... could you have achieved the same power with just a turbo and computer upgrade and keeping the same engine you had? (I mean, before you munched the bearings, of course) If so, then does it really warrant a class bump?

Peak power, or under the curve? Peak power isn't hard to make but good usable power, the higher redline, etc make his swap a lot better than adding a bigger turbo and an ECU to his original motor..

[Anonymous]

Regarding bumping to the donor car class for an engine swap:

That works if the donor car is in a higher class, like the STI swap. But, what if it's a swap to an engine from the same class? We've got DSP and ESP lumped together... so let's say someone takes a DSP BMW and does a V8 swap from a Mustang GT. (it could happen!) That car needs to bump up a class.

How about a Street Mod type rule, regarding motor swaps have to be from the same manufacturer. So if the DSP BMW swaps in a bigger ESP or DSP BMW engine he stays. But if he puts in an ASP BMW engine, or a DSP Ford engine, he bumps to the donor class or one class bump for engine swap not from the same manufacturer.

[Loren]

We don't want to be "restrictive" like SCCA, we want people to be able to have a reasonable class to play in with whatever weird swap they already had done BEFORE they ever came to one of our events.

Try to keep whatever we come up with as simple as possible.

I look at it this way: The car was originally classes as a "whole". A significant engine swap had to have been done for a reason, that reason is typically more power. Add power to the package and the car should go up a class. (regardless of whether the engine came from another car that's in the same class or not)

Cars with factory turbos are always iffy, but since SCCA is allowing boost mods now, we can assume that they've adjusted for that and classed cars according to their boost potential.

[Anonymous]

-Installing forced induction on a car that did not come with it from the factory will result in a one class bump.
-Engine swaps bump to the class of the donor car.
-Engine swaps which offer a significant advantage will be bumped up one class.
--Significant advantage is defined as more than 300 cc displacement increase or addition of engine technology that wasn't present originally" (such as VTEC, 4-valve head, turbo, fuel injection, etc.)

edited per below...

[Loren]

How 'bout "more than 300 cc displacement increase or addition of engine technology that wasn't present originally" (such as VTEC, 4-valve head, turbo, fuel injection, etc.)

Specifying that, we can ditch the "from the same class" bit. The engine can come from a higher or lower class... as long as it's not more than 300cc bigger and doesn't bring anything else to the table.

[Anonymous]

I don't know about the tech bit. Seems kinda picky. I would leave it at displacement.

There are actually some cars in which the variable cam version is less desired. ie Celica GT vs. GTS in stock class. Probably not common but still.

[Loren]

We need more input. We're making good progress here, but it's primarily you and me working this... what does everyone else think? Other ideas? Other refinements? "This sucks, leave it as it is"?

[Alizarin]

I would like to point out that designing a rule to stick me in a specific class may do more overall harm than good. Just an observation. I can't really compete with Ron or Loren, so class 1 or 2 (under the currently proposed divisions) really doesn't matter much to me.

That said, the notes aboot adding engine technology that wasn't present originally will catch me, as the new engine has AVCS (variable valve timing on the intake side) where as the old one didn't.

And yes, Loren, I could have gotten about 300 whp out of the old engine if I wanted to. TurboXS stage 4 kit is a front mount, new turbo, a piggy-back ecu, and larger exhaust. It would have been peaky, though, and nowhere near as smooth as the current engine. AVCS really does help smooth things out.

[Loren]

AVCS really does help smooth things out.

Which is exactly why I think the addition of any sort of active valve timing control needs to be addressed... or at least considered.

[WAFlowers]

It's just like the classic race tires in stock class SCCA argument. To allow race tires is to require them because you can't compete without them.

This is the sort of thing that I really detest about SCCA and what I like about FAST. With the class splitting that was done in the production street tire classes FAST has become an even better club, IMHO.

It won't be as simple to split this modified class, but if it can be one in an equitible manner it will go that much further to improve FAST!