Modified Street Tire Classes - What to do?

[Anonymous]

I don't know. 3 Sentences, that is a pretty complicated ruleset.

[Native]

We split up stock classes because they were too big, AND because people complained the cars weren't competitive.

We're splitting up D and E because E got too big. Unless I've missed something, no one has complained about not being competitive.

The over-under 3 liters has worked fine. Just keep it simple and resplit the classes. Something like 1.9 and less, 2.0-3.0, 3.1 and up. There' no need for anything more.

Sure, the 3 lines above are simple. But you have to add them to the rest of the steps. Does my car meet FAST mod rules? yes, ok what's my SCCA class? Now apply the second set of FAST mod rules (just 3) and see if I bump my SCCA class. Then translate that result back to FAST.

If people can't figure out our current mod rules, and that other thread proves they can't, what's suggested above is only going to make it worse.

From a competition perspective, the current emphasis on displacement works fine. It's not necessary to needlessly complicate matters.

[Loren]

We (the underdogs of class E) never complained loudly about the disparity in our class, but there are folks who would like to be able to compete in something that makes less than 200 hp. The growth of Class E has just made the split a more logical move. I mean, if we only had 4-5 cars in E, it wouldn't make sense to try to split it... even with a big disparity of cars.

Ironically, the discussion at Saturday's event was started by Ron, the current top dog in our class!

Anyway... As much as I like the idea that we hashed out today of using modified SCCA SP classing, I also like the simplicity of what you've proposed, Steve.

However, I think the SP classing route yields classes that have much better parity.

ASP/BSP/CSP = A variety of true sports cars and super-lightweight nimble sporty cars that can hang together. (Vettes, S2000's, Miatas, CRX's, etc)

DSP/ESP = A step lower than that. Sport sedans, muscle cars and slower, semi-lightweight cars with reasonable power. (BMW 325's, Mustangs, Camaros, Civic Si's, etc)

FSP = Freakin' slow cars that can't get out of their own way, but handle really well.

Your split, while simper, doesn't really address the disparities:

< 1.9 liters will keep out the S2000, but still has Miatas (which the PAX index says can hang with the cars in our fastest class) competing against cars like the base model Honda Civic and Ford Focus.

1.9-3.1 liters captures the S2000 and the turbo Miatas, two of our fastest cars... and allows them to dominate our middle class.

3.1+ catches all the large-displacement cars, and really wouldn't be any different than the current D class. (which is okay...)

So, your solution splits class E in half and gives us two classes that can be dominated by Miatas/S2000's. As much as I love those cars, I think we should have some classes that OTHER cars can compete in.

We could further modify the displacement formula with modifiers for "sports car" or "RWD/AWD" or whatever, but I still think the "3 sentences" that we came up with based on SCCA SP classing is a lot less complicated.

Just like our production classes, it's a simple look-up and two questions. Did you add a turbo? Did you do an engine swap?

[Anonymous]

Unless I've missed something, no one has complained about not being competitive.

Mike in the Corolla has in a previous thread, and he is right. Just depends on what you want, "simple" or "fair". Can't really have both.

[TracAction]

ok so how about

1) non sport based cars (typical FWD)
2) sport based cars (typical RWD)
3) all forced induction v-tech/ AWD (what ever is appropriate with you guys)

yes there will be exceptions to the example but in general you will get the focus, yaris, Aveo, sentra and civic.... and other econemy cars in one class. 350Z, miata, mustangs, Prelude, integra ...ect In class 2 and in Class 3 would be S2000, Subaru turbo miata, and the Turbo 240sx ....ect

So for the January D and E class would have broke down as such (as far as I can tell)

class 1 Non Sport)................ 7 cars
class 2 Sport)....................... 9 cars
class 3 FI,Vtech and other).... 8 cars

this is just another KISS example is all

[Charles]

ok so how about

1) non sport based cars (typical FWD)
2) sport based cars (typical RWD)
3) all forced induction v-tech/ AWD (what ever is appropriate with you guys)

Typical mustangs and other heavy american iron don't have much of a chance keeping up with a miata or RX-8 in this "RWD class"

Heavy german AWD cars don't stand a chance against most anything else that would fall into class 3...... unless I'm not following your examples...

S2000 vs A4 ?

[TracAction]

Not perfect but simple.....

and over the course of a season with a various tracks and locations I think times could be competative.

Andrew's times were very competative in his mustang in class 2. But what it really boils down too is the most competative times are posted by the most competent people the ones who put in the most seat time are always going to rise above the others no matter what class you put them in ..... I beleive Loren in his yaris would be competative and most any of our classes not because his car can do but because he can do it as with many other people in this club. (just used Loren as a dramatic example) The times across all of D and E are not THAT different over all and over time.

Fun is simple ...... no need to over think this

[Dave-ROR]

I don't think it's good to break it out by drive layout and such, you'll have the same complaints, from the same people and from some new people.

[Anonymous]

At least it's better than splitting by engine displacement.

Although I just started splitting up the results and I got confused when I got to S2000. Does that go in the sport category or the VTEC category?

[Loren]

What about something like my poor little Spitfire 1500? It's a "sports car".

Unfortunately, "painting with a broad brush" doesn't give us fair classing.

Just like with our Production classes... SCCA has done all the hard work. They've looked at almost every car out there, examined its potential, and placed it in an appropriate class based on its merits. It's almost silly to not use that knowledge base.

[Anonymous]

I left s2000s in the sport category.
It's pretty close, other than the fact that Loren pointed out. They do make slow rear wheel drive cars, see the Corolla GTS below, and also splitting a car out just because it has FI or VTEC doesn't make sense.

Code: Select all

***DRIVETRAIN BASED***

Brooksville December

Class 1 (NON SPORT)
1) Loren Williams  07 Sloyota Yaris   77.617   FSP


Class 2 (SPORT)
2) Jason Ball      06 Mazda Miata     75.274   CSP
1) Andrew Scoda    87 Ford Mustang    76.790   ESP
2) Jeff Girardello 9 Ford Mustang Gt  76.859   ESP
5) Ron Marchini    04 Honda S2000     79.263   BSP
6) Victor Crichton 01 BMW M Roadster  79.286   ASP
7) Brian Bode      01 Honda S2000     77.862+1 BSP
8) Philip Hart     94 Mazda Miata     84.222   CSP


Class 3 (FI,VTEC,AWD)
1) Ronald Croft    04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 74.629   BSP
3) Charles Stowe   240sx              76.611   DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1
4) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX      77.751   ESP, with BSP swap bumps to class 1
3) Rydell Huff     1 Impreza 2.5RS    80.234   DSP
9)John Kilpatrick  95 Nissan 240sx    86.525+1 DSP  assuming bump for turbo added?



SPC January

Class 1 (NON SPORT)
1) Loren Williams  07 Sloyota Yaris   61.633   FSP
2) Evan Warner     04 Ford Focus      67.458   FSP
3) Michael Houtz   99 Toyota Corolla  68.996   FSP
4) Mark Warner     Ford Focus         65.455+2 FSP
9) Lisa Vlaming    91 Honda Prelude   91.758+5 DSP


Class 2 (SPORT)
3) Andrew Scoda    87 Ford Mustang    63.994   ESP
3) Mark Jones      96 Mazda Miata     64.635   CSP
4) Carl McKim      96 Mazda Miata     65.620   CSP
5) Ron Marchini    04 Honda S2000     63.717+1 BSP
6) Brian Bode      01 Honda S2000     64.746+1 BSP
7) Juan Rodriguez  04 Mazda RX8       64.797+1 BSP
8) Tim Allen       93 Mazda Miata     66.859   CSP
7) Keith Pecha     Pontiac Firebird   72.297   ESP
8) John Dellacosta Ford Mustang       71.327+2 ESP
5) Jeff Klein      Toyota Carolla GTS 80.461+1 FSP 


Class 3 (FI,VTEC,AWD)
1) Ronald Croft    04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 60.591   BSP
2) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX      61.353   ESP, with BSP swap, bumps to class 1
1) Rydell Huff     1 Impreza 2.5RS    62.723   DSP
2) Robert Vincent  05 Legacy GT       63.503   ESP
4) John Kucek      00 Honda Civic Si  63.831+1 DSP
5) Jeff Greenhaus  Acura Integra      64.013+2 DSP
6) Chris Wells     00 Honda Civic     68.034+1 FSP, turbo add bumps to class 2
9) William Ensminge96 Nissan 240sx    68.803+1 DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1
10) Doug Anderson   Nissan 240sx      75.375   DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1

[Anonymous]

And I don't know about Mustangs vs. ASP/BSP/CSP cars.
According to the pax index, a mustang is going to be 1 second slower than all these cars on a 60 sec. course. And since this is a street tire class I think it will be even worse, cause you are taking away their traction.

[Dave-ROR]

So an Integra R would be where?

It's a DSP car, so Class 3 seems to be where most DSP cars are.... but then again there's a DSP in class 1 too....

More important (since the ITR is actually quick), an 86 integra with something to bump it into modified would have to be classed the same as the ITR right?

Simple rules will never equal fair IMO. I'm still certain that Loren, Ron C, etc would make any car a class winner, but still...

edit: Oh and I'm fine with all Integras being in DSP, I'm just not sure they should really be in the same class with some of the other cars mentioned..

[Loren]

We've got at least 3 different ideas floated now (SP-based, displacement-based, and drivetrain-based). Dave, you need to be specific about which one you're griping about!

I still think the closest to fair and pretty darned simple is the SP-based classing.

[Anonymous]

An Integra has no business running with turbo Miatas and turbo 240s, neither does an NA Impreza or any other slower AWD car. Class 3 on this recent example (drivetrain based) makes no sense, like I said earlier.

[Dave-ROR]

We've got at least 3 different ideas floated now (SP-based, displacement-based, and drivetrain-based). Dave, you need to be specific about which one you're griping about!

I still think the closest to fair and pretty darned simple is the SP-based classing.

LOL sorry I thought it was obvious. I was referring to the last one that was grouping "DSP" cars together in Class 3 (not on purpose, just because of the FI/AWD part).

I believe, and have since it was firsted suggested, that the SP-based in the only logical option so far.

[Charles]

I'm still certain that Loren, Ron C, etc would make any car a class winner, but still...

That's probably true but we still need competitive classing for the rest of us average Joe's

I would put up a poll for SP based and displacement based, everyone on the forum can have a chance to vote and move forward with it.

Then we just need to tighten up the "significant advantage" verbiage on the swap issue and we are good to go.

[Anonymous]

WARNING: CLASSING NERDS ONLY READ BELOW.

I have one issue now that Dave brought up Intergras.

ALL integras are DSP cars, I think.

LS = 140 HP
GS-R = 170 HP
Type R = 195 HP

I think since they are all in the same SP line, that swaps between these cars would be allowed under SP rules. But swapping in a GSR motor in an LS is a 21% increase in HP and going to the Type R is a 39% increase.

While there are huge HP gains between these three cars, the max torque number is unchanged.

Maybe change significant to 25% to allow the GSR swap, but not the Type R swap? Or go by TQ instead of HP?

Hope I didn't confuse anyone, this question was only meant for the classing nerds.

[Loren]

We're in no hurry. Steve wants to wait until next season to implement a change. So, let's continue the discussion for at least a week until everyone's had their say before we put it up for vote.

Many of us think we've already seen the best option presented... maybe someone will come up with something we haven't yet considered.

[Dave-ROR]

WARNING: CLASSING NERDS ONLY READ BELOW.

I have one issue now that Dave brought up Intergras.

ALL integras are DSP cars, I think.

LS = 140 HP
GS-R = 170 HP
Type R = 195 HP

I think since they are all in the same SP line, that swaps between these cars would be allowed under SP rules. But swapping in a GSR motor in an LS is a 21% increase in HP and going to the Type R is a 39% increase.

While there are huge HP gains between these three cars, the max torque number is unchanged.

Maybe change significant to 25% to allow the GSR swap, but not the Type R swap? Or go by TQ instead of HP?

Hope I didn't confuse anyone, this question was only meant for the classing nerds.

I do find it funny that all Integras are DSP now Even a modified GS-R won't touch an equally well modified ITR...