Spec (narrow) Tire class?

[twistedwankel]

And all of a sudden it occurs to me that a set of 8" or 9" rims costs even less than tires.....Lions and Tigers and Bears....OH mY!!

[Charles]

I think Gerry nailed it about being able to run one set of tires to "do it all" for those that also daily drive their autoX car(most of us). I could see people getting into that, especially for the cost savings mentioned if you can get 2 years out of a set of tires. With a true "all season" tire and enough camber it wouldn't surprise me to see people get far more than 2 years from a set if you only run with FAST. SPJC doesn't really wear tires....

[Loren]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. One set of tires. Cheaper tires. Longer lasting tires. Also some interesting competition.

It's February. Plenty of time to think this out before August to declare a class for next season. Give it some more thought. If there are a handful of people willing to do it, we can start serious discussion to pin down the rules.

I was initially thinking "Mod class" rules. But, now I wonder... why not let ANY car on appropriate tires play? For instance, Mike's Cobra on street tires. Yeah, it's a "race car". Yeah, it's got gobs of power. But, it's limited by traction, just like everyone else in this class will be.

So, it might be as simple as coming up with a way to identify "allowed" tires. We could use Tire Rack's Ultra High Performance All Season tire list as an exclusion list and allow any other all-season tire. Would that work?

As for width, "widest stock option plus 10" might work.

[blacksheep-1]

I agree that mods could be open because the tires would be the limiting factor, but wouldn't vehicle weight also play into this, more than mods? I mean a miata on little weenie tires is one thing, but a corvette?
Good idea though, I think it has merit.

[Loren]

Yeah, that's how I've already been talked out of a 185 tread width requirement, Rob.

But a Corvette on factory-width crappy all-season tires should do as well as a Miata on factory-width crappy all-season tires. (probably better on a lot of courses)

[rojeho]

It would require a tire change at events and some junkyard trolling, but why not just race on four temporary spares? That'll be entertaining

[Loren]

It would require a tire change at events and some junkyard trolling, but why not just race on four temporary spares? That'll be entertaining

There's a big difference between racing on what is essentially the tire that a car was DESIGNED to drive on, and racing on a tire that is literally half the width with NO redeeming qualities.

While it might be an entertaining experiment, I have zero interest in this idea as a sustainable class for people to compete in.

[AScoda]

I'm not sure running temp spares would even be safe.

[blacksheep-1]

Pepboys buy three get one free, the official spec tire supplier to FAST

[twistedwankel]

How about we all buy a used SAAB @ $100 for a 2000+ model?

Whoever is still running at the end of the season wins all the other cars to use for parts.

The SOB class? There's a nice silver vert up the street from me right now.

Skinny Tire "Orphan" Class?
STOC

[Loren]

The idea (part of it) is to SAVE money, Doug. I fail to see how buying a POS Swedish car would save anyone any money!

In other news, I've bought a set of one of the lightest variants of stock Miata wheels (10.5 pounds) and I'm toying with the idea of putting some super LIGHT tires on them. There are several 185's that weigh around 16 pounds, some 175's that weigh 15... and if I can bear to run Potenza RE92's in a 165/65 size... they weigh 13 pounds! The lightest thing I've ever had on a Miata was Volks (6.5#) plus Azenis (19#). I'm aiming for lighter (and cheaper).

I'd do the RE92's if they weren't $95 each. Will probably end up with a cheap 175 width tire. Why not?

And for you all you space-saver suggesters: I know someone who's selling a set of 13" alloys with 155/70's. 4x100... they'll fit a Miata, Honda, Toyota, etc.

[shakedown067]

And for you all you space-saver suggesters: I know someone who's selling a set of 13" alloys with 155/70's. 4x100... they'll fit a Miata, Honda, Toyota, etc.

How much? Would love to get some lighter wheels for my wife's Hyundai.

[twistedwankel]

But a Corvette on factory-width crappy all-season tires should do as well as a Miata on factory-width crappy all-season tires. (probably better on a lot of courses)

I really think this is something worthwhile.
VINTAGE Stock = VS

Must use stock wheels and otherwise qualify for "S". Period per our very relaxed rules.

Pick any 140 wear (or as assigned by poll) and up "original stock size" tire width and stick with it. My Mustang came with 225/60/15" x 7" wide rims. Not available in anything other than 420+ wear. BUT say 225/50/15" and suddenly it's available in a number of manufacturers and wear ratings aka Miata for a 3259# car - sans driver.

Or just say "V" and limit 225mm tire width at some specific minimum wear rating?
Or just go crazy and have V1=V2+V3+V4+V5 (sounds alot like German rockets now).

[Jeremy]

I am still down.

I think splitting it up by mods is going a little too far. We barely have enough interest for it now without splitting it up into a bunch of classes.

Maybe 2 classes...

2 seaters with stock wheel and tire sizes
4 seaters with stock wheel and tire sizes

because a lot of 2 seaters come with decent rubber from the factory. The s2000 for example 8.5" wheels and 245's in the rear.

Someone just needs to make a list of approved tires.

[Loren]

To go vintage, I think we really need to specify NARROWER than stock tire sizes for most modern cars. I just put some really shitty 4-5 year old generic stock-sized tires on my Miata and it STILL has higher cornering limits than something like my old Spitfire on its stock 145 or 155-width tires.

But, I know I'm probably the only person who's nutty enough to do something like that. (I'm gonna put a set of 175's on the Miata!)

So, yeah... for this class, specify stock tire size or smaller. An approved tire list or similar will probably be required, with a "committee" to approve the oddball generic tire that's not on our list.

To really make it "fair", though, I think there needs to be a limit. Like, a Miata could run 195-width tires... and even on all-seasons, that's pretty good. But, is it good enough to compete with an S2K with 225's and 245's? Should those cars even be in the same class? If they are, obviously, the S2K would need to be "hindered" more than the Miata. And that's pretty much where I started with this whole idea. A fixed tire width requirement. Whatever you and your car can do with THAT width, great!

I could see doing two classes, or some sort of handicapping within a single 2-tiered class. Like, a class for max 185-width and a class for max 225 width. (each class being a limitation for the likely "top cars" in each class... 185's for a Miata, 225's for an S2k... not ideal for either) And if we had to combine them, do a PAX-style index (that we would have to determine) to equalize the 185's with the 225's.

Or, maybe stock tire sizes will limit each car enough to make it all work out... but I doubt it.

Is this something we want to try to do for next season? We could do it on an experimental basis to work out the kinks and answer some questions before getting too "formal" about it. Personally, I'll be co-driving John's Miata next season on RS3's, probably in M1 (so John can kick butt in M2). So, I won't be ripe for this until the following season.

[twistedwankel]

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/CompareTires.jsp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is the comparo of Kuhmo AST (400 UTQG) and ASX (420 UTQG fits a vette)

Not alot of difference especially in the dry.

AST fits alot of cars from Miata to Mustang to S2000 to RX8.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... mpare1=yes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole series maintains the 400 or 420 rating and doesn't jump around like some brands.

195/50/15 miata tire $59ea/$236set.

225/50/15 Mustang $73ea/$292set.

225/50/16 Some Mustangs $79ea/$316set.

225/45/17 Would fit S2000 front and rear $92ea/$368set.
The interesting thing here is I found they came with 215/45/17F and 245/45/17R hmmmm those sizes are available too. I can live with those sizes and no torque!!

225/40/18 Would fit RX8 but be 1" short dia $102ea/$408set.

ASX for 96 Corvette stock sizes 255/45/17F $127ea and 285/40/17R $162ea. Those are some pretty big tires with torque so maybe same size front and rear for penalty? That would be interesting.

I have a primary set of mounted AST's that I've had going on two seasons with alot of tread left after many autocrosses and about 7500 miles of highway/city. They are a great tire. Quiet, grippy in dry and wet but totally lame compared to my RS3's on the same car. They most important are cheap. I had a set of 225/60/15 ASX's on my 84 Stang and I didn't think they were any better or worse in handling. Placed 3rd in a pouring rain once with them against Miatae and Pony cars.

Unfortunately we'll be out of bounds driving on the left side of the road May and June events so no way to compare with anyone having street tires on their Miata, etc.

I do believe this will work. I can stay with Bob T's S2000 with my RX8 on occassion and even beat him a couple times with our stock wheels and identical branded tires even tho' he has bigger rear rims. He also has no torque either but has to shift alot more than I do to keep that VTEC working

After the Duel (super pleasant surprise) I firmly believe my stock Mustang can still stay with the Miatae if they are running stock rubber too. Don't know how many Miata folk will actually opt for this class as their "good" tires are dirt cheap and last forever all ready? The very illusion of ever being able to beat any Vette with an old Pony car just makes me drool.

We have lots of time to work on this. Anyone else who has personal experience with a cheap many sized tire please chime in here.

[Jeremy]

2nd gen S2000 is 215 front and 245 rear. I am not sure if the CR model had larger sizes, but those are kind of rare any way. They can just be excluded.

I don't think a Miata will have any problems hanging with it.

[twistedwankel]

Minimum Age for Vintage Class?

5 years old or older OR any discontinued Brand?

Pontiac, Plymouth, Saturn, Saab, Olds, Yugo, Triumph, MG, you get the idea here. The "new" fancy stuff still has to run S class = tough beans, they can afford big payments and they get new specific design tires and technology from the factory. Our goal is to save money here and still have a riot once a month with never having to change wheels.

[yamaha731]

keep it simple wear rating of 400 or higher and stock width or less.. 2 classes pro and noob

[Loren]

Treadwear doesn't work, Chris. There are 400+ TW tires that are "ultra high performance" and pretty capable tires... and they're only available in 17-18" sizes. Whereas, for smaller sizes, like 14" or even 15", the 400 TW options are more "all-season touring tire" in nature.

Try looking at the Tire Rack's test results on some of the better all-season tires, you'll see what I mean.